I do apologize for the tardiness, I was dealing with matters elsewhere.
A bit of warm-up:
The dead coming back to life - That's a very common occurrence in end of the world stories. Could there have been an "end times" scenario based around several of Dream's options?
"Charles Rowland had just turned thirteen."
In many cultures, a major turning point - even a transition to adulthood. After reading the other comments, this reminded me of my own time in school, but not in the sense that I was at an old boarding school.
During my schooling, I often felt apart from the rest of the class, even the rest of the world. I would arrange things, in one way or another, to avoid spending recess or lunch with everyone else, choosing books or similar devices instead.
When Marian mentioned 'it still rang true to my feelings in grade school, sans zombies.' I started thinking of the modern commentary of zombies, and that my school was full of them. Kids (and some adults) just going though the motions, doing was was expected, what was on the script. One of my teachers even said once. "School isn't for learning facts, all of this is pointless. School is about preparing you for doing pointless things in an office environment"
Many of those other students just 'stayed'. (Not all in the literal sense - my graduating class had the highestenrollment to the Armed Services of the country that year. Bosnia was the first tour for them, and everything after....In some ways, the idea behind the story is very appealing.
There's an idea common to mythologies that different realms can have a "belonging" and or a "jealously". There's not really good words for it in English, because of various connotations, but the basic idea is that beings of one place can become infected with another realm, and if this infection becomes too strong, it can be dimentionally altering. This isn't always an equal effect across realms, in fact, it rarely is. Some common examples are, eating food in hades, or in the fairy lands, or, people bound to the fairy kingdom being unable to touch the ground. Or if a god spends too much time in the mortal world, they cannot return to the Divine land, even though they may still be immortal (or not).
I think this is one of the things that made the key so dangerous, because it wasn't just the doors to hell, it was an extension of the realm itself, exerting its presence over the holder (not that I think this was what Lucifer was up to, more on that later).
I think this is idea is more significant in the story of Lyta and her child. Morpheus doesn't claim him out of desire or anger. He states it as a mater of fact, that he belongs to the land of Dreaming, something that even he wouldn't be able to change.
Delirium is one of the Endless I fell like I understand the most. Oddly, until reo mentioned it, I never thought of her as "...she appears and speaks as a hallucinating drug addict", I though her outfit was more to invoke the freedom of the Punk culture at that time. (Midnight Oil is 'Easy listening' now?) (Huh, i never heard that chime line in this song before- is it because of these headphones? The dishes need to be washed. Calculus is funny, like water - I had to taste it to see if the bubbles were there.)
Dream said they they server humanity. Is humanity no longer capable of delight, or is it just that they believe it only exists in a state of delirium? Regardless of the reason (or the season - is it cold or hot where the Endless are?) the fact is that the change happened, they act like it has,or hasn't - dealing with it seems to be painful in either way.
Quote the Call (Her feathers are a nice color this hour - very marsh-mellow) "The choice matters even though it was predestined/foreknown. I feel this strongly. I'm not positive how -- maybe it only changes the chooser, not the story. So the idea that there's no such thing as free will doesn't bother me so much, because I still feel in my gut that choices change or at least describe the chooser."
Lucifer's actions were to make Dream make a choice - maybe there were good ones, maybe bad - And I think he had an idea of some of the things that might happen, but those were just guesses, bonuses - 3 cherries or 3 bars, or even two coins (two coins to pay the ferryman) - it didn't really matter to him.
The gold ring on the carousel (Luci didn't just pull down the ring, he pulled himself off the ride with it in hand). was to get Dream to make that choice, and by making that choice, by making that choice a significant one, he made it so that Dream would change. And for the endless to change, is to destroy who they are.
First, an aside about Joi's quote from C.S. Lewis. Does anyone else read that and think of Dolores Umbridge?
And apologies, this will be a long post...
To me the calling card of this book is almost but not quite on the tip of a few people's tongues. Agency. Agency is closely related to free will, but is subtly different in an important way. Free will is being able to make a choice. My interpretation of agency is being empowered to make a choice (you can divine your own interpretation, though i warn you wikipedia is actually a terrible source for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agency_(philosophy). If possible i'd suggest reading deeper philosophical texts on the matter). The difference is that with the empowerment you are also responsible.
One of the most common agency scenarios plays out with Thor. He attempts to be a victim to his drunkenness to say that it's not his fault he was harassing Bast. Baloney! He chose to get drunk, i consider him responsible for his actions. From the other side of that same line, Bast was robbed of her agency and did not get to choose to get hit on by a drunk sot. However she did get to say no and have it respected, which is a nice change from reality.
I love Joi's mention:
“I would have made her a goddess.” “Maybe she didn’t want to be a goddess.” YES. THIS. Dream does not want Nada to be able to choose freely.
Dream is attempting to rob Nada of her own agency. He's attempting to force her to stay with him. Nada retained her agency the only she knew how by choosing death. Fortunately this time around Morpheus stops trying to deny Nada her freedom to choose.
The reason Destiny calls everyone together is because Dream must make a choice. Destiny is wise beyond his years and does not tell Dream what to choose despite knowing beforehand. He does not rob Dream of his agency.
The beings in hell feel compelled to be either torture (demons) or be tortured (humans). They are robbed of their agency. Then Ramiel comes down and tells them that they are being saved by their actions. It is now their choice -- and their responsibility -- to torture or be tortured. He gives them agency.
Note that the bullies, akin to the demons, are robbed of their own agency. They feel like they must have their "little fun". When Rowland was alive he was bullied by his superiors, by his peers, and probably by everyone else. His death gives him agency. He's finally empowered to leave a terrible situation. You will see this again later.
In giving away hell, Lucifer has made a choice, one he was never previously able to make. Strangely, Dream's journey to save his loved one from hell has given Lucifer agency. I'm not entirely sure why this one works. But i like the agency of the guy who goes to the beach every day for sunset. Life has been terrible to him, but he doesn't feel forced into depression or certain roles. He chooses to be himself. It's oddly unsettling that i feel less free to choose my mood than a character in a graphic novel :-/
Lastly, and most importantly, Dream is robbed of his agency in choosing who gets hell. He could say no, Lucifer did. He robs himself of agency constantly by saying he "must carry out his duties". The lack of a 7th at Destiny's meeting proves he can choose.
Dream is no longer incarcerated, he can make choices. But he doesn't yet have agency. He's on a path towards full free will, but he's not there yet.
And this is the bit i'm less sure of, but makes sense to me:
Subtly, Dream robs himself of agency when he chooses to get Nada. He had hoped to do that later (i argue he should have done it last time he was there). Why go now? Because he feels like he must for moral reasons. He's not actively making this choice, his "path is clear" as if set from another force. Because he's offended by Death "siding" with Desire, and because he has the audacity to ask Nada again if she'd like to be with him, i don't think this is the choice he would have chosen freely. I think he feels his hand is forced and does not have agency.
I'm a bit behind, but just finished book 4. I hope to stop by my FLCS to pick up the next graphic novel this week.
I really enjoy how Death keeps everyone in perspective. She's the mediator, the mother, the confidante. She's the one that has taken a long look at the universe and sees the big picture. Sometimes I feel like she's the way we all want to be...eventually, or secretly.
In the first episode, the things that I'm most curious about are Lyta's son, Daniel, and Dream's friendship with Hob. The latter reminds me of Dream musing about Death's ritual of taking a day off to be a mortal, to live with them for a bit to remind her of her responsibilities. I wonder if Morpheus built this friendship so that he could have the same thing? Someone he could meet with once a century to talk about the last hundred years? He's so self-centered that he couldn't bare to do it himself (unlike Death) so he has someone do it for him. Speaking of which, the poses he strikes before he goes to do "battle" make me chuckle so much. He is so dramatic. It's hard not to smile. His returns are not so dramatic, more like humbled as he gains more knowledge and wisdom. Oh, and I also was curious to read that if Dream died in Hell, another Dream Lord would come to take his place. The Endless have different incarnations that rise if something happens to the current one?
While in Hell - Lucifer knows the burden of that place, the psychic toll it can take. I think that's why he thought it would eventually destroy Dream. I also think Lucifer's fall was the first stab at the creation of free will. I think when he finally quit Hell that was his own realization that he had free will first. It took him billions of years to realize that he didn't have to follow the Plan. I also think that Lucifer's "humanization" helped Dream find his own humanity. We are following Dream on his journey of discovery and ultimately I think Lucifer provides Dream much wisdom he had been lacking. I also really liked the various gates, particularly the little garden gate in the rock wall.
House Guests - Loved this episode. I found it amusing and curious that Order had slaves. Remiel, who is set over those who rise. That seems like a nod to what he will eventually become, lord over Hell and to help those poor souls to rise above their petty concerns, their need to blame someone else for the evil they've committed. Eve & Matthew's conversation struck such a poignant chord, too. I also found it interesting how the Eve's image shifted from frame to frame. She represents all women and holds their wisdom. I wonder if she's relegated to her cave because she's either tired of Morpheus' tantrums or because he put there because he refused to listen to her advice.
The Boys - Death in leg warmers? Wow..just..wow. This story also reminds me of a short piece in Fragile Things. A boy runs away from home because he doesn't belong and finds a dead boy to befriend. The story isn't at a school, but the theme of friendship among the downtrodden is similar.
The Dinner - For all his knowledge and understanding, Odin still relies on Loki's clever observations. Odin can see much, but Loki can glean meaning from simple things such as eating and drinking. Of course the angels are on a different level so he has no way to interpret them. This makes me believe that the gods as we know them are creations of humanity to answer certain Questions that we have about Ourselves. But beyond what we have created is a force/energy/being that is eternal and beyond us. The gods we can understand for they show the extremes of humanity, but there is something alien to us out there.
The Beach - I've read this episode a few times and the old Australian that speaks with Lucifer always makes me think he's God.
I've only skimmed all of what has been said, so forgive me if anyone has said this already - but the Lucifer books are an interesting tie in to this volume (not to mention some of the death books).
"The boys" are an interesting thing to me, as I could see myself being the one boy - alone, and then forced into a place where he doesn't belong (the school filled with the dead), finally being killed by forces he can't fight against (three dead bullies). It was a very hard story for me to read actually. And - I've got to say - the matter of fact way that Gaiman states the boy died just creeps me out.
Overall, one of the themes I see in this volume is wisdom over temptation. I'm going to especially point to the decision Morpheus had to make. Essentially the one demon (who's name escapes me at the moment) had exactly what he wanted to begin with - what brought about this adventure. To a lesser person (or being in this case) the choice might have been simple - give hell to the demons and he gets what he wants as well.
There's also the temptation to make one or more of his family members happy (won't say which one, as that's a spoiler) after being told by his older sister to rely on family more (and obviously heading her advice). Ugg, got ahead of myself - I'm talking about him finding his brother.
But going beyond temptation - I think it's interesting that the souls of hell migrated to wherever it is they felt most "at home." Almost like they didn't have a soul....or this is where their soul felt at peace or...I don't know, kind of working on this thought now that I think about it, hah. There's a metaphor in there somewhere, I know there is!
Does anyone remember if we see any more of Chaos? It might be interesting to see her compared to delirium. Regardless, I'm sure she operates within Delirium's realm.
Edwartica - is the metaphor you seek being about the retired firehorse that reacts to the alarm bell or, perhaps, it's the one about the horse heading back to the stable without a guide out of force of habit? I don't remember the exact phrasing but those, especially the latter, seem like they would fit what you were trying to describe.
@jynx I sorta agree with you about Dream's lack of agency in his actions, but I don't think it was taken away from him as much as he took it away from himself. He was pushed in that direction, yes, but he could've resisted and left her there until he was ready to stop procrastinating about it. I have a hard time putting it into words, but again, I don't think anyone took his agency in the matter away, but himself.
@MattTroedson I still feel that Lucifer has succeeded in destroying Morpheus with his actions, albeit indirectly. The Morningstar knows him and has for a long time. He also must have had some idea of how other pantheons coveted hell for various reasons. Although I don't believe there's any way he could predict the specifics (and I myself don't know the specifics yet), I believe he knew that his actions knocked down the first domino in a chain that ultimately leads to Morpheus dying at the end of The Kindly Ones.
@EdwarticaDoes anyone remember if we see any more of Chaos? It might be interesting to see her compared to delirium. Regardless, I'm sure she operates within Delirium's realm.
I don't have the book here, but I'm sure Chaos isn't portrayed as a single entity but a realm with inhabitants? Much like in the Norse mythology. (Loki is a son of Chaos, for example.) I know the Endless existed before and stand aside from mortal and mythological realms, gods, etc, but I wonder whether the chaos that is the beginning of so many creation myths isn't Delirium's home.
I think it's interesting that the souls of hell migrated to wherever it is they felt most "at home."
Did they? I thought they ended up wherever they did without making a choice. I didn't think they had a choice. Have I mis-read that?
@Sus Other than the fact that Charles and Edwin leave the school just because they decide to leave, it's never explicitly stated why they are where they are. It seems to be connected to the mythos of ghosts as much as anything. It's clearly not every staff member that came back, so there seems to be some kind of influencer. I feel like the fact that it's unknown is part of the point - the reader chooses the reason.
I'm curious on all the discussions about lack of choices or lack of agency, I'm been thinking on it for a while, and it's still very cloudy to me. I see a choice on every page, even the ones at the start that have no characters - there's a maze, the embodiment of choice.
If it helps, I could give specific examples of where agency is confusing me.
I had been introduced to the term before, but under the idea that it was about society accepting the ability of someone to make a choice, but that was in the context of just sitting around and talking, not a classroom.
This seems to be a different term, or maybe it's not, and I'm even more confused.
"Agency" is a code word for a complex set of stuff, at least when it's used in terms of psychology. When I use the term "agency" with a patient what I'm talking about is the belief that you can do what you want as well as the ability to do what you want to do. It ties in with "autonomy." The two boys demonstrated "agency" by Charles expressing the belief that they didn't have to stay rooted at the school as the other dead souls did and then the two of them getting up and leaving. "Agency" is more than just the belief, it is also the action. Another term we use that ties in with the concept is "self-efficacy."
It is sort of a hoot to "hear" the two of them discussing (briefly, it's true) the nature of Hell as they observe the behaviors of the stuck souls at the school while they themselves are heading for the door. Is Hell a place or is it something you carry with you? Does Lucifer Morningstar leave by locking all the doors and being outside of a place or does he leave when he decides he no longer has to be the keeper of that particular asylum?
Matt, After reading your comment about the old guy on the beach I went back & reread that piece I agree that the old guy does seem like he's meant to be Lucifer's ex-boss, dropping by to let Luc know that He's still keeping an eye on him.
Further question about the nature of Hell and agency: Is Hell the absence of a sense of agency? The feeling of being trapped by (small d) destiny? Several of my patients would gladly agree with this, though I think they would be talking about "small h" hell. Not the theological concept or place but the idea of of torment and lack of control.
Several of the various beings in this volume make the argument that each soul's hell is of its own choosing and the idea of being trapped is bogus. These souls are undergoing torture because they believe they deserve it, e.g. Breschlau of Livonia. If that's the case then is Hell the perversion of the idea of agency? Souls aren't consigned to Hell by some Theocratic Judge but are instead sent there by a travel agent after they named it as their desired destination? An interesting twist on Free Will versus Predetermination.
Is the boundary between Heaven and Hell a clear line or, like in Shaw's Man and Superman is it more nebulous and like a state of mind/being than a borderline?
Comments
be a goddess.” YES. THIS. Dream does not want Nada to be able to choose freely.
The reason Destiny calls everyone together is because Dream must make a choice. Destiny is wise beyond his years and does not tell Dream what to choose despite knowing beforehand. He does not rob Dream of his agency.
"The boys" are an interesting thing to me, as I could see myself being the one boy - alone, and then forced into a place where he doesn't belong (the school filled with the dead), finally being killed by forces he can't fight against (three dead bullies). It was a very hard story for me to read actually. And - I've got to say - the matter of fact way that Gaiman states the boy died just creeps me out.
Overall, one of the themes I see in this volume is wisdom over temptation. I'm going to especially point to the decision Morpheus had to make. Essentially the one demon (who's name escapes me at the moment) had exactly what he wanted to begin with - what brought about this adventure. To a lesser person (or being in this case) the choice might have been simple - give hell to the demons and he gets what he wants as well.
There's also the temptation to make one or more of his family members happy (won't say which one, as that's a spoiler) after being told by his older sister to rely on family more (and obviously heading her advice). Ugg, got ahead of myself - I'm talking about him finding his brother.
But going beyond temptation - I think it's interesting that the souls of hell migrated to wherever it is they felt most "at home." Almost like they didn't have a soul....or this is where their soul felt at peace or...I don't know, kind of working on this thought now that I think about it, hah. There's a metaphor in there somewhere, I know there is!
Does anyone remember if we see any more of Chaos? It might be interesting to see her compared to delirium. Regardless, I'm sure she operates within Delirium's realm.
@MattTroedson I still feel that Lucifer has succeeded in destroying Morpheus with his actions, albeit indirectly. The Morningstar knows him and has for a long time. He also must have had some idea of how other pantheons coveted hell for various reasons. Although I don't believe there's any way he could predict the specifics (and I myself don't know the specifics yet), I believe he knew that his actions knocked down the first domino in a chain that ultimately leads to Morpheus dying at the end of The Kindly Ones.
@Edwartica Does anyone remember if we see any more of Chaos? It might be interesting to see her compared to delirium. Regardless, I'm sure she operates within Delirium's realm.
I don't have the book here, but I'm sure Chaos isn't portrayed as a single entity but a realm with inhabitants? Much like in the Norse mythology. (Loki is a son of Chaos, for example.) I know the Endless existed before and stand aside from mortal and mythological realms, gods, etc, but I wonder whether the chaos that is the beginning of so many creation myths isn't Delirium's home.
I think it's interesting that the souls of hell migrated to wherever it is they felt most "at home."
Did they? I thought they ended up wherever they did without making a choice. I didn't think they had a choice. Have I mis-read that?
It is sort of a hoot to "hear" the two of them discussing (briefly, it's true) the nature of Hell as they observe the behaviors of the stuck souls at the school while they themselves are heading for the door. Is Hell a place or is it something you carry with you? Does Lucifer Morningstar leave by locking all the doors and being outside of a place or does he leave when he decides he no longer has to be the keeper of that particular asylum?
Why Australia?
After reading your comment about the old guy on the beach I went back & reread that piece I agree that the old guy does seem like he's meant to be Lucifer's ex-boss, dropping by to let Luc know that He's still keeping an eye on him.
Further question about the nature of Hell and agency: Is Hell the absence of a sense of agency? The feeling of being trapped by (small d) destiny? Several of my patients would gladly agree with this, though I think they would be talking about "small h" hell. Not the theological concept or place but the idea of of torment and lack of control.
Several of the various beings in this volume make the argument that each soul's hell is of its own choosing and the idea of being trapped is bogus. These souls are undergoing torture because they believe they deserve it, e.g. Breschlau of Livonia. If that's the case then is Hell the perversion of the idea of agency? Souls aren't consigned to Hell by some Theocratic Judge but are instead sent there by a travel agent after they named it as their desired destination? An interesting twist on Free Will versus Predetermination.
Is the boundary between Heaven and Hell a clear line or, like in Shaw's Man and Superman is it more nebulous and like a state of mind/being than a borderline?