VOLUME I main discussion thread

2

Comments

  • I have no in depth response but just wanted to say that this volume shows how art can use emotion in such powerful ways. The two that affected me the most were the words muttered by Unity Kincaid as she awoke and the look on Dream's face when he sees his home.
  • He's almost like Edvard Munch's The Scream at that moment, isn't he?

    I was trying to pay attention to his eyes, once or twice they are normal instead of the black inky shadows.

    Lovely response though!
  • edited February 2014

    This is my first time reading the series and so while I don’t have as many erudite insights to share, here are some of my very rough thoughts (having left them peculating for twenty four hours).

    This first issue opens the series with a clear vision of where we are going, with some dominant themes beginning to emerge from the outset: Characters desire for change but bounded by their situation, the way that core elements stay the same despite character’s intent (the repeating of patterns and actions across time and situations); The questioning of what defines and motivates us to do different things; And the impact (power?) of perception.

    The subsequent ‘adventures’ – the return home, the recovering of the items – all build upon this as the protagonist searches for the parts of his character that he has lost and that he feels that he needs to be himself. It is not until he has recovered all of the parts that he thinks that he will feel whole again but actually discovers that it is the purpose that he needs to be complete.

    The final issue is the one which has sold me on the series and makes me excited to read more. It acts as the coda to the story; a pause and breath as we examine what has actually happened over the last periods and it allows us all to be slightly more introspective than stopping immediately after the action would have allowed. It begins to show us context and analysis of the environment and through mundane behaviours (for the characters) adds life and depth to the proceedings.

    I’ll be interested to see what happens next (and thank you all for providing me with some food for thought)...

  • I have not yet read the full series - several years back, I read the first two trade volumes and then dropped the series. So I'm terribly intrigued (and heartened) by all the "I had a thought, but, OH, spoilers!" comments. Because my initial thoughts upon re-reading volume one was that it still felt very disconnected and disjointed - I'm glad to read that more of the pieces here have pay off in echoes and reflections down the road.  This disjointed feelingd does suit the idea of dreams and dreamworld - anyone who's ever tried to tell someone about a dream knows how the narrative which seemed so clear just a minute ago reveals itself to be full of jumps and leaps from scene to scene - but it was also very difficult for me to gain traction. The central narrative - Dream's imprisonment, escape, his quest for his tools and the reclamation of his power - is broken up by what seem to be tangents and sideplots that... well, they do actually reflect the themes being discussed here on the forums, but on my first reading, I didn't get much from them. Probably because the first time through, I was reading impatiently, waiting for the author to get back to the 'main' story.

    The characters, often archetypal, were hard for me to connect to... until John Dee and isn't that terrifying, that the character easiest to sympathize with is the one who murders the one person to show him kindness (oh! like Cain and Abel) and then toys with people like a bored, un-empathetic child toys with insects. 

    The art work definitely adds to a dream-like quality. The edges of things are not always clearly defined.Objects that should be solid and steady have a tendency to stretch and change (I'm thinking specifically of face shapes - Constantine's face remains stretched and elongated in the real world for a single panel when Morpheus pulls him out of the falling dream, pg 96 of my 1995 edition).  Even the edges of panels are often not squared and straight, instead slanting and bending across the pages, an effect that is more pronounced when Morpheus is present and most obvious in dreams (and which occasionally lead to me reading down a single page meant to be read across as a two page spread). 

    I love the way we're shown Dream's other faces - and other facets to his personality - when he's talking to people from different cultures. It's interesting the way mortals' expectations shape his presentation.

    clockwork rat - Wow! (Also, thanks for the visual aids!)
  • A thought I had during church this morning (probably not appropriate to be musing on Sandman during the service, but whatever):

    Upon his return, Abel addresses Morpheus as "Prince of Stories." This brought to mind two questions:

    1. Is there any significance to him being the prince of stories, rather than the king? 
    2. If Morpheus is the Prince of Stories, then what responsibility does he have towards the dreams that he creates, and the dreamers who dream the stories? 
  • Geez, you guys are blowing my mind. Gonna see if I can quote some of you on Twitter!
  • edited February 2014
    In so many ways, Sandman is about stories. The process of creating stories, how experiencing stories changes you. The stories people tell themselves and the stories they tell each other. The epic myths and the little lies, the ongoing narratives and the already-forgotten dreams, the archetypes and the slapstick. 

    And to that end Gaiman et al were very particular about everything. Morpheus' changing appearance, the typefaces chosen for the speech and thoughts from different characters, color schemes, art styles. All of it was carefully planned to evoke a specific mood from the reader, which Gaiman would then, basically, screw with to create an even better story.

    I'll get more specific as we continue, but I wanted to put this out there to explain why I reread Sandman so often, and why it affected me so much the first time. It came along at a time when I was learning to be a writer, and it served as a massively entertaining master class in story, one that also included not only all the zillions of literary references I was thrilled to understand and gain new perspective on, but the promise that there were just as many I wasn't getting and needed to. Also, Gaiman gave me the very first Death who was a positive figure, where previously they were negative or, at best, neutral. He's said that he'd heard of an African tale of a death so beautiful that when you died she pulled your life out through your eyes, and he liked that concept. So do I.

    One thing you don't get, from this perspective, is the context in which this was written. Not that it needs it; Sandman stands perfectly well on its own. But when it came along there hadn't been much horror in the DC verse for some time. Vertigo wasn't a thing yet. DC had some weirdness in Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and the spinoff Hellblazer, but the bulk of the comics out there were brightly colored, shallowly-written superhero books. And yay for those, I love me some hero comics. But out of nowhere in the four-color world of comics there was this tale, weighty and meaningful and layered and dangerously beautiful and full of actual true things. There simply had not been anything like it before. 

    It should also be said that yes, this was Gaiman's first ongoing series, and you can see him getting better and more confident as he goes. The first issues are disjointed and don't create nearly as much of a story arc as the later books do. This is Gaiman and the artists making their tools and seeing what they can do with them. Early sketches, as it were.

    A friend of mine bought the first 10 issues and plopped them on my lap some 24 years ago and made me read them. I am forever grateful, and never missed one after that. (I got to repay her last year by tipping her off about a spontaneous ninja gig with Gaiman and Amanda Palmer close to where my friend was living.)
  • Chris, am I right in mentally having Watchmen and Infinite Crisis play a similar role in busting comics out of their shallow brightly-colored hero stories and into a more dystopian post-modern storytelling?

    I came so late to comics (age 28, 2009) that I'm having to construct their history & context in my brain backwards.
  • edited February 2014
    Very much so. Maybe  not dystopian, so much, but with more mature storylines and actual consequences for actions that affect later stories.

    While there had been British creators in US comics before, Alan Moore was the one who really looked at what had come before and decided to apply the rules and the tropes to something closer to the real world. That resulted in Swamp Thing, and ultimately in The Watchmen. Both were brilliant stories that took apart traditional superhero stories and really looked at them and what they would mean if they were "real," and after DC and Moore broke up DC editor and later Vertigo editor Karen Berger actively recruited more people who could do that, such as Gaiman, Grant Morrison, Jamie Delano and others. Vertigo became the comics imprint where anything could happen, an indie publisher inside of a mainstream one.

    The difference to me wasn't so much that superheroes were being made gritty, but that for once characters acted like people, not soap opera characters. They had higher highs and lower lows and if they made a choice, it mattered and it lasted. This is the lesson that current DC Comics (which, notably, Karen Berger has left) and movie makers did not learn. Making heroes gritty isn't what makes them interesting.
  • edited February 2014
    Cabridges, I like what you said here: "characters acted like people, not soap opera characters. They had higher highs and lower lows and if they made a choice, it mattered and it lasted."  I think the idea of consequences is central to Sandman, though it's more apparent in the latter books in the set. Every choice the characters makes matters, even if they couldn't have chosen anything else, even if they didn't know any better. 
  • @Joi: Cain and Abel, meanwhile, are referred to as "the keepers of the stories" during Dream's fight with Dee (in the delightful "monsters under the bed" panel). Cain previously identified himself of a purveyor of horror stories and nightmares. Just what is the extent of their commission?

    I've been reviewing "The Sound of Her Wings" a bit more closely today. (I find it hilarious that Dream, when asked if he's ever seen MARY POPPINS, replies, "No." I'm not sure whether to believe him.) As we move on from this volume to the rest of the series, it's important to ask ourselves: Just how did Dream's 70 years of imprisonment affect him? As he told Alex after he escaped, "TIME moves no FASTER for my kind than it does for humanity, and in PRISON it CRAWLED at a snail's pace…" Even for one of the Endless, that takes a psychological toll.

    Trying my best to avoid getting into spoilers, then: When Death scolds him and delivers her "tough love" in the last chapter, then, what exactly is she telling him? How well does she understand what he went through? And what, if anything, is the last page foreshadowing? "I have found the solace I sought, though not in the way I imagined it." Dream closes his eyes, scatters grain like dream-sand, and surrounds himself with the sound of wings.
  • @svithrir AUGH, I want so BADLY to talk about future books here, but, no, must not, not yet. 

    The relationship between Dream and his siblings is central to the book. The first one we see him interact with is Death, though the others do come later. Why is Death the first one, aside from the fact that they've always been fairly close? (Which is interesting, in itself, that Dream and Death are so closely allied.)

    I wonder if, in that last speech, Death is reminding Dream that he was not intended to be antagonistic towards humanity. He'd spent 70 years doing nothing but yearning for vengeance on those who had wronged him; does he need to re-learn (or possibly learn for the first time) what his proper relationship to humanity is?
  • Aahhh I know right?!

    Ahem.

    It's interesting, isn't it, that Dream wants a "purpose beyond [his] function." And Death scolds, "Feeling all SORRY for yourself because your little GAME is OVER, and you haven't got the-- the BALLS to go and find a NEW one!" But then she goes on to carry out *her* function, reminding Dream of (and giving the audience their first real immersion in) just who these Endless are and what purpose they serve. It's a bit of a mixed message, but I suppose Dream needs to hear both.
  • @Svithrir @Joi_the_artist They seem to be very close siblings. It is interesting that Death would ask Morpheus if he saw Mary Poppins, considering he was trapped in 1964 when the movie came out. She was aware that he couldn't see the Mary Poppins. And he responds with a restrained, simple "No." 

    She, knowing that he feels directionless, uses this moment to compare him to Mr. Banks. Morpheus lost touch with his role as a father to his realm. Death shows him what's what through "take your little brother to work day" and helps him focus of what is important: his responsibility as Dream.


  • @clockworkrat *facepalm* Of course. I never made that connection. "How could Dream not have seen Mary Poppins?" I wondered. "He's the Prince of Stories! Surely he must know it! Is he just being petulant?"
  • Interesting how many times later on Dream brings up that he has "responsibilities." He seems sometimes as bound by Duty as Frederick in 'Pirates of Penzance' -- although here in the first book he either hasn't regained his control over those responsibilities, or he's too vengeful to mind them properly.

    I wonder how much of his shocked face when he sees the ruins of the Dreaming has to do with a new awareness of what happens when he does not perform his responsibilities?

    And I wonder whether Death's pep talk has much to do with reminding him of his duty, which is not to feel a sense of purpose, but to manage his realm.
  • I love the idea of Death as a petulant mopey little brother who takes himself too seriously.  I'd kick his ass too. (I'm an oldest sibling.)
  • edited February 2014
    Joi_the_artist, as you know if you've read it, consequences from a decision Dream made early on is central to the arc running through the entire story -- so many loose ends come back, and so many don't, and I love them both.

    Marian, I think in Morpheus' development he begins to truly learn what his responsibilities really are, aside from simply ruling over the dream world. I think he learns what the responsibilities of a kind and just ruler are to the people under his rule, and they're more than just keeping the peace and glaring at everyone. And I think his forced imprisonment, his realization that he'd gotten into a rut, and Death's challenge is what kicks that off.
  • I do wonder about what the how Dream's relationships have changed over time, both to his family and his kingdom.

    "I watched him even then as he fell, his face undefeated, his eyes still proud."

    There is a suggestion of a friendship between the Prince of Dreams, and the Prince of Lies. There are even parallels between their kingdoms and their palaces. (See page 8 of 'A Hope in Hell' and page 16 of 'Imperfect Hosts') As well, there is the observations on how both realms have changed recently in time. No only suggesting a connection, but also indicating that Dream had been there recently. (In the time frame of one who is timeless.) The idealized image of his palace is surrounded by skulls,

    Is there the suggestion that the forest of suicide has become overrun because there were no more dreams? Or is this just a further pointer to Dream that the world has changed much in his absence. And the hatred that Morningstar has for Dream - could it be that Lucifer had a Dream that he could be more than his station, and that drove his revolt? (I would still say the the responsibility for his actions is on his shoulders, but I could see why he would blame Dream.) Could that be the event when 'the world was young, and order was needed' that led to the building of the gates? Could Devil be one of the 'Endless'?

    "I lay in the bed, feeling weaker than I have for eons." - I wonder what happen to him long ago that would cause similar injuries? Honestly, I don't have much to add here, just wondering about the stories from those eons. Was that what led him to make his tools?

    His relationship to Cain and Able - He mentions that he created the commissions before the dawn of time, which does add weight to the idea that they are characters beyond the biblical characters.



  • @cabridges I think this is my 3rd read-through of Sandman, so yes, I know. :) I'm just DESPERATELY trying to avoid spoilers for those who haven't read the whole thing yet.
  • I've been returning to the forum and reading all of your carefully spoiler-free messages, and volume 1 is still churning through my brain. It's fascinating. I don't have to worry too much about spoilers, having never read the rest of the series, so I'm going to speculate a bit.

    There was discussion early on about Cain and Abel, and how important they seem to be. It really makes me eager to see if there's going to be a depiction of the cyclical nature of time and events that was so prevalent in many cultures' early storytelling traditions. If so, it ought to be interesting given that change seems to be a constant in the series so far.
  • edited February 2014
    @GordMcLeod, @JohnnyHawkwind, @Ginger, other first timer whose name escapes me, and the shy hesitant to post first timers who might be intimidated:

    I'm very much looking forward to your opinions on the text. I'm sure there are plenty of us who wish they could have a virgin experience with the story again. You have a unique perspective in the sense that you don't know what will happen, and you could grab onto details that us repeat readers might miss. An interpretation or opinion from a first read can be just as important as the next.
  • edited February 2014

    Is there any significance to him being the prince of stories, rather than the king?

    Considering Cain and Abel are part of the "First Story" (Genesis, universal beginning, an early story of man, what have you [so many ideas with this simple slip]) Morpheus is a Prince in comparison to the god Cain and Abel worshiped. If you have the Prince of Dreams and the Prince of Lies,(thanks @Daniel) that implies there is a higher monarch still in power. Prince shows they are powerful and godlike but not in as much power as Cain and Abel's God. Dreams and Lies are the titles that defines their role. We might need to revisit this at another time as well?
  • On a totally different note, fun fact about Marian: only once in my life have I made out with a total stranger.  And it was sitting in the EXACT spot in Washington Square Park where Death chews out Dream.
  • Did you hear the flapping of wings? (Sorry, I couldn't resist, reminded me of another book series, where the onset of death is compared to the embrace of a lover. Another topic for another time.)
  • Nah, not so much.  It was entertaining, but not supernatural. Now I can say I've done that once, and I feel no need to try it again.  ;)
  • That is a pretty awesome story! :D
  • Looking at the greater power - what about Destiny's book? He's not writing it, he's reading it. Who wrote it? Where did it come from? Is it writing itself? It could be another reference to "The Author".
  • edited February 2014
    from a writing perspective I'm thinking that it is a clever way to give character to otherwise uninteresting exposition.

    From a story perspective, using only the evidence given in the story so far and my own opinions, my first read-through I considered it to have been written by God, the one from Cain and Abel's story and/or the one Lucifer rebelled against.
  • It's a little weird for me to be starting Sandman from the beginning. I personally got into Sandman when I was in college. It was the 1995-1996 school year, and there were a lot of fans of the series in my dorm, and I borrowed the collections from dorm-mates whenever I could, in a completely random order. But the last couple volumes weren't yet collected, and I'm not sure anyone had the first volume; I think it was in short supply until it was reprinted. So the story of Dream's capture and escape was never the starting point for me, but more of a nebulous background element that was occasionally obliquely referred to. And since I didn't read the last volumes, it was also a story without an ending. And yet, I think it worked quite well that way. Most of the material in the middle collections is episodic and self contained. And I'm not sure I'd have kept with it if my first exposure had been to the style of horror in Volume 1.
  • edited February 2014
    And related to reading - Is there any part that you've noticed that you read wrong in previous reads? While every time I reread a book, I find something new, either about it, or about my own reaction to it, due to events in my life, what I'm referring to is actually making a mistake in the pages.

    For example, starting with the epilogue to "A Hope in Hell", I was assuming that Dee was hallucinating a necklace as an eyeball. This led me to think that the Scarecrow had actually hung himself and that Dee was imagining the entire conversation with him. I then confused the dead guard as to be the image of the Scarecrow in the real word. Think about his lines "It sounds scary, Have a nice time. And you must promise ---when you get back--to tell me all about it.....But we always come back here, it's so scary outside." Now think about those lines, coming out of the deranged mind of Dee, in a conversation to himself.

    It also had me thinking that he was seeing the normal as horror, and horror as normal. Which made me think there was something really really wrong with Rosemary, rather than her being punished for her kindness. 

    I have more to say on this idea, but I want to see if anyone else has had an experience like this.


  • If you want to deep dive into the question of imprisonment and freedom there's a very telling, somewhat subtle, nod to that in "Dream a little dream of me". After Dream has let Rachel sleep one last time the words "It's the best of all possible worlds" are narrated. That phrase is a calling card worth knowing. It harkens to Free Will vs Determinism, which is an age-old philosophical question tantamount to imprisonment vs freedom.


    Full disclosure: i myself haven't done much deep-diving here. I only know the Cliff's Notes version.

    There are many possible avenues of this line (Free Will vs Determinism) in just this one scene, from Rachel, to Constantine, to Morpheus, and even Death since Rachel has just died.

    And this ties into some of the above arguments about the potential for a higher power as well (who wrote Destiny's book, etc).
  • Whoa! Via @jynx in the Vol. I Questions thread, a background on Cain and Abel. 

    ****SPOILERS*** in the linked page if you have not yet read the whole Sandman series.  But if you have:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_and_Abel_(comics)

    Apparently Cain & Abel and the House of Mystery go way back in DC Comics.  There's a ton in this article!
  • What responsibilities does a storyteller have to characters not his own? Gaiman makes brilliant use of many established (and in some cases, long-forgotten) DC characters. 
  • I read the original comics when they were published in the 90's. I had started with Swamp Thing in the mid 80's after someone recommended how good the writing was. (In a comic book?) I did not know the history of "Plop!" (Cain, Abel, & Eve) but found that story line fascinating. Neil Gaiman is an excellent story weaver.
    Blows my mind that this stuff is now taught for college credit.

    The question of who could the possible narrator(s) be is so excellent. The author's POV could come from one of these (or other) possibilities:

    1) pages from Destiny's book
    2) a book from Lucien's library
    3) threads from the Kindly Ones' spinning

    Marian, thanks for sharing about your Washington Square date. When that type of stuff happens, it is mind blowing but remember: it's all good fun! And great art will do that to you.

    In 1993 back when was reading Sandman and they showed up in my mailbox monthly, I had a date with an old girlfriend who showed up dressed all in black. Yes, it was a sleeveless shirt, and yes she wore a silver ankh necklace. She had no idea what it meant. I did my best to keep my composure. But I was so well behaved the girl thought I was not interested. Things did not work out and I was kicking myself later for not being able to act cooler... Decades later, I found out that things had indeed worked out for the best - and I had been spared from a heap of major trouble.

    Part of Dream's package is that he has a hard time getting over the past. That is why I think he found hanging out with his older sister to be a good lesson to "get over it" and to start focusing more on the present.
  • As far as the narrator for "24 Hours" goes, I have a feeling that it's either Lucien or Dream himself.

    Also, I can't go into it deeply because of spoilers, but the plots of vol. 1 & 2 feel like a single story to me. I don't know if that's just part of the interconnectedness of the whole series, but both are fetch quests, when you get down to it, and it's not until the end of vol. 2 that Morpheus is truly back in full control of the Dreaming. (If even then. As I've said, I've only read vol. 1 & 2, so my comments are going to be highly speculative throughout.)

    Because he's working so heavily with borrowed characters in this first arc, I think that plays into its awkwardness. Granted, he was also pretty new to comics and he also admits that played a role in it, but things are already slotting into place in the latter part of issue 4 with the challenge in Hell. It feels like Gaiman's finally playing in his own sandbox there, and is free to do everything his way. I don't know how much of that Hell had appeared in DC prior to Sandman, though, so I could be wrong about the characters all being his own there.

    After things stall out a bit with the Justice League in issue five, Gaiman really gets going again with six and seven. Dee's still a borrowed character, as is Scarecrow (whose second appearance breaks the creative momentum for me), but the horrors of the diner, and Dream's battle with Dee build on the originality of the showdown in Hell, and I really enjoy the way Morpheus ultimately pities Dee and simply returns him to Arkham before giving the entire world a good night's sleep.

    I agree with everybody that issue 8, "The Sound of Her Wings" is were the series finally truly becomes its own thing, and that it's the first truly great issue, but unlike some of you, "Preludes and Nocturnes" never lost its grip on me.

    Even when I came fresh to it, I knew that the appearances of Mr. Miracle, Martian Manhunter and Scarecrow were _wrong_ for the series, but the symbolism of Dream's victories in Hell, and the sheer visceral terror of "24 Hours" giving way to the psychological conflict in "Sound & Fury" let me know that despite the flaws in this first volume, the series would give way to something worthy of its awesome reputation.

    The parallels between Bette and Dee have already been pointed out, but even more than that, I think it's interesting to remember that aside from "Black Orchid" and maybe some fill-in issues, this was Neil Gaiman's first major piece of literature. Prior to that, he was a journalist and biographer (having written books on Duran Duran and Douglas Addams). With that in mind, Bette's re-imaginings of the people around her, sanitizing and repackaging their stories to suit her own tastes, really feels like a dig at the spin doctors and publicity machines surrounding stars and politicians, which he had almost certainly had experiences with.

    That's not to mention her attempts at self-delusion. Some, like rewriting Jane and Donna into straight women for her stories, she knows consciously to be false, but others, such as believing the rich couple to be deeply in love, are, even from the start, clearly untrue, though she seems to believe it anyway.

    Both Bette and Dee are broken. Bette wants to fix things around her, thinking that if she does, even if just on the page, her life will become what she wants it to be. Dee, on the other hand, is at the point where he just wants to break the world to the point where he looks unbroken by comparison.

    Both reflect on Dream in this arc. The battle in Hell is really his turning point, even if he doesn't realize it until he talks with Death at the end of the volume. He's full of hatred and fury early on, thanks to his imprisonment and loss of power. It's only when he turns his strategy from destroying his opponent in the face-off to representing himself as a nurturing Earth and hope itself, that he starts to regain his own compassion. Even when he did kind acts for Rachel and John Constantine, he did them with a groan and only with prodding, but then you see him kindly telling Scott Free that he hopes he can find his true name, and granting J'onn dreams of a lost city of Mars. His compassion only grows from there, setting right everything that Dr. Destiny ruined through his twisted acts, and even granting mercy and pity on the crazed man and returning his sleep to him, giving him a modicum of peace, and the potential to regain his long-lost sanity.

    Neither Dee nor Bette are going about their attempts to set their lives straight the right way, but neither is Dream. All three are egotistical and feel the need to control the world around them, and make others what _they_ think they should be, though none of them are ultimately successful. In a sense, "24 Hours" and "Sound and Fury" are symbolically Morpheus's mind throughout this arc in microcosm. Anger and resentment leading into a hellish place before being slowly replaced by peace and compassion.

    Granted, Morpheus is back to being moody and brooding at the start of the following issue, but the whole thing has been both emotionally and physically exhausting for him, and his quest for revenge and the return of his stuff was the only thing driving him after he was freed. He's long since out of the habit and flow of his actual duties as the Prince of Stories, so it makes sense that he feels directionless, even though he knows what his next act should be.

    As for that next act, well, off to vol. 2, and the continuation of his quest.
  • (Sorry for the huge post, my sleep schedule got entirely screwed up and I ended up sleeping through Saturday and having to stay up about 25 hours into Sunday night just to try to reset it, so I played catch-up so I don't fall too far behind with the discussion.)
  • Thanks, @clockworkrat ! I don't know exactly how blank my slate is - I've been a general comics fan (and a Gaiman novels fan) for ages, so I may have picked up a bit via fandom osmosis. But I am excited to keep reading!
  • Did anyone else ever wonder if the character "Roderick Burgess" was loosely based on the historical person "Aleister Crowley"?
  • Reo: Well, Crowley's mentioned, so I doubt he's a stand-in. However, there were several magical groups around the same time. The Golden Dawn was probably the best known. Anyone else read any of Charles Williams' novels? He was active in those circles, too.
  • I know I'm late to the discussion, got
    behind on reading. This is really only my second read through, and
    the first was over a decade ago, so a lot of the details and mini
    storylines I had forgotten. I don't have much to add to what has
    already been said – wow, you guys got into some awesome stuff! Just
    some random thoughts I had.



    First of all, I like that the fates –
    or the three sisters, as he calls them – get referred to, at least
    initially, by their Greek names (Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos). I do
    find it interesting that they are then referred to as the Hecateae
    (which seems like a plural form of Hecate/Hekate, the Greek goddess
    of witches/crossroads/night, etc), and it is a term I had never heard
    before, despite a lifelong interest in mythology. May have to look
    into whether it's been in common use, or it was made up for the
    purposes of the story (note: after a quick Google search, I think
    this particular spelling is unique to the Sandman series, all hits
    seems related to that, and not mythology). I also find it interesting
    that they have mashed together the idea of the spinners of fate with
    the maiden, mother, and crone archetype. I get that they wanted to
    link them, but I feel like they are different enough concepts that
    it's not automatic to link them, aside from for the purposes of the
    story. Fascinating, and I'm excited to see where they go with that.
    (I don't remember ever reading the last few volumes the first time
    around, plus I've forgotten so much, so it really will be a surprise
    to me).



    Next thought: the story “24
    hours” really stuck with me. Even though it's been maybe 12 years
    at least since I read any of these books, and even though a lot of
    the details are hazy, this particular story stayed with me as one of
    the more psychologically horrifying things I have ever read (and I
    used to read a lot of horror when I was younger, scaring myself was
    fun back then). I think it's partly the sociopathic qualities of Dee,
    the puppetmaster, combined with the idea of being one of the people
    in the diner that has literally no control of themselves – it just
    gives me the willies. I can't decide if the note that this story is
    really an essay on authors and their characters makes that better or
    worse. On one hand, the puppetmaster being less affected by their
    pain makes more sense. On the other hand, it really opens up a lot of
    questions about the empathy of writers, and how deeply they are or
    are not affected by what they do to their characters. Either
    way...just WOW. Nightmare material for sure.



    Third: was anyone else
    really struck by the brief appearance of Nada? Even though we don't
    learn much about her in this volume, just seeing her tells us a lot
    about Dream – and how much growing he still has to do (I mean, he
    had 10,000 years to forgive his ex, and he STILL isn't over it?
    C'mon, dude, grow up). On top of all that, the mere reference to her
    story seems very ancient and deeply rooted in other first nation
    stories, and I LOVE that Neil Gaiman can do that. He makes the story
    seem old, even if he just thought it up, and we never question that.
    It seems so natural.



    And finally: The Sound of
    her Wings is definitely my favorite story in volume one. I love love
    LOVE Death, and identify with her more than any other character in
    the series. She is such a freaking breath of fresh air. This volume
    has so much seriousness, and pain, and horror, and exploring of deep
    themes, both for the Endless and humanity, and then...we have Death,
    the perky little goth girl with a great sense of humor, grounded
    advice, and a firm grip on her responsibilities. Just being with her
    for a day brings Dream down to earth and gets him to quit brooding,
    at least briefly. As an eldest sibling (and someone with a similar
    personality/way of dealing with people), I can totally see myself
    saying to a brother, or a friend, exactly what she says to Dream.
    She's not at all what we expect, but she provides the PERFECT break
    in the story...and I love the happy depiction of Death. She has a
    thankless job that few appreciate, but she does it for EVERYONE and
    EVERYTHING and is incredibly resilient about it. Truly blows my mind
    and makes me really happy and inspired. Plus, she wears an ankh,
    which really makes me grin, as I had just started wearing one and
    getting more into Egyptian mythology maybe a couple years before
    reading Sandman the first time. It just...makes me giggle. Death,
    wearing the symbol of life. How beautiful is that? (I know it's
    slightly more complicated than that, but shh...)  

  • Morpheus has a *LOT* of baggage.
    It did not bother my sense of story that M still has issues with Nada in Preludes & Overtures.
    What remains to be seen is why M should have any say in why Nada is still in Hell.
    And really, her name is Nada! Spanish for "Nothing".
    It's like Ulysses telling the Cyclops his name is Nemo (which means "no one" in Latin).

    Death is extremely well written and drawn. I find it easy to feel empathy & sympathy toward her. She has a really shitty job. Of the 3 (or 4) female Endless, I find her the prettiest and admire her sense of responsibility the most. Hanging out with her for a day, could almost be fun (if one could catch her on that one day in a century) but even if it were the wrong day, I think it would be well spent to hang with her while working and would straighten the crap up in most people's heads. The other 2 (or 3) female Endless... BAH! Way too toxic as presented. Mr Gaiman also does a wonderful job of weaving a loose net around Death that just about any major religion's afterlife story can fit within. My opinion, anyway.

    Dr Dee & the Diner scene - I never thought of it as: this is what writers do to their characters (which is an excellent analysis). I see it as too much power given to an unstable mind with the typical result.
    The interesting thing is why does M not kill Dee when M has killed others? Among the possibilities:

    1) Dee is sick and not responsible for his choices
    2) Life in imprisonment is very hard (as M has learned) and harder than dying
    3) The power released by the ruby breaking, strengthened M
    4) M, the Prince of Stories, is maturing as his own story unfolds

    I think this may be one of Mr Gaiman's lessons: Revenge is for the weak and the emotionally hurt; and there is little to no consolation to be found there. M finds much more purpose and consolation after spending time with his working sister. I also imagine Death enjoyed giving her little brother a thunk on the side of his head with his own bag of sand before that. He needed it. And what better object to use and who else could do it in a therapeutic way?

    Nada and Nemo
  • Reo, well, Morpheus is able to undo all that Dee did during those 24 hours, and as I mentioned, he reached a turning point in his post-imprisonment mental state during the competition in hell when he realized that he had to turn away from crushing his enemies to offering hope and forgiveness.

    He also realizes that Dee is broken, mentally, and that his lack of the ability to sleep is a major part of that, so, just like he was the nurturing Earth and then Hope when confronting Choronzon in Hell, he saw that giving Dee a chance to recover is better for both himself and the worlds than continuing his vengeance and fury.

    That vengeful mindset that he had while entering Hell is why he leaves Nada there. He has a complete hatred of humanity at that point after being imprisoned for seventy long years in the basement of Burgess's house.

    I just got vol. 3, "Dream Country" today, and it's way too early to discuss specifics, but the first story in that book shows that he has learned to forgive those that wronged him in the past.

    I'm going to quote my earlier thoughts on this, since they probably got lost in my lengthy post from before:
    The parallels between Bette and Dee have already been pointed out, but
    even more than that, I think it's interesting to remember that aside
    from "Black Orchid" and maybe some fill-in issues, this was Neil
    Gaiman's first major piece of literature. Prior to that, he was a
    journalist and biographer (having written books on Duran Duran and
    Douglas Addams). With that in mind, Bette's re-imaginings of the people
    around her, sanitizing and repackaging their stories to suit her own
    tastes, really feels like a dig at the spin doctors and publicity
    machines surrounding stars and politicians, which he had almost
    certainly had experiences with.

    That's not to mention her
    attempts at self-delusion. Some, like rewriting Jane and Donna into
    straight women for her stories, she knows consciously to be false, but
    others, such as believing the rich couple to be deeply in love, are,
    even from the start, clearly untrue, though she seems to believe it
    anyway.

    Both Bette and Dee are broken. Bette wants to fix things
    around her, thinking that if she does, even if just on the page, her
    life will become what she wants it to be. Dee, on the other hand, is at
    the point where he just wants to break the world to the point where he
    looks unbroken by comparison.

    Both reflect on Dream in this arc.
    The battle in Hell is really his turning point, even if he doesn't
    realize it until he talks with Death at the end of the volume. He's full
    of hatred and fury early on, thanks to his imprisonment and loss of
    power. It's only when he turns his strategy from destroying his opponent
    in the face-off to representing himself as a nurturing Earth and hope
    itself, that he starts to regain his own compassion. Even when he did
    kind acts for Rachel and John Constantine, he did them with a groan and
    only with prodding, but then you see him kindly telling Scott Free that
    he hopes he can find his true name, and granting J'onn dreams of a lost
    city of Mars. His compassion only grows from there, setting right
    everything that Dr. Destiny ruined through his twisted acts, and even
    granting mercy and pity on the crazed man and returning his sleep to
    him, giving him a modicum of peace, and the potential to regain his
    long-lost sanity.

    Neither Dee nor Bette are going about their
    attempts to set their lives straight the right way, but neither is
    Dream. All three are egotistical and feel the need to control the world
    around them, and make others what _they_ think they should be, though
    none of them are ultimately successful. In a sense, "24 Hours" and
    "Sound and Fury" are symbolically Morpheus's mind throughout this arc in
    microcosm. Anger and resentment leading into a hellish place before
    being slowly replaced by peace and compassion.
  • ...okay, that's still lengthy, but at least it's focused more or less on one theme rather than being all over the place.
  • Wow, what's been written so far has been just amazing.  I hate coming in late as I can't respond to everyone's points, but here are a few I've been thinking about.   I think next time I'm just going to write down handles so I can tag people

    1) I don't recall, is Death Dream's younger or older sister? I don't think it mentions that in Vol. 1.  I imagine that Death would be younger because Death happens last.  Destiny, Desire, Dream....it all occurs before Death.  Maybe, aside from being completely at ease with her role in existence, that is why she is so bubbly/happy?  She's perpetually the youngest Endless?  Also, I think she is the least attached to humanity.  They fear her, they don't try to affect her, she's Death.  They provide all sorts of emotion to Dream, Desire, etc.  They don't want to provide anything to Death, so she's free to keep her role neutral and in the moment. 
    Finally, I think the reason why Dream and Death are so close is that sleep is often called "the little death."  While she might be younger, or older age-wise, sleeping and death are close so it makes sense that those two Endless are also close.

    2) Cain & Abel.  I don't know how DC is using C&A in their world and I won't look for fear of potential spoilers.  Someone mentioned that C&A are an older story, the first story.  I'm not sure about that, but most cultures have a story about a change, a shift from Paradise to Earth.  And some societies clearly steal stories/myths from other cultures to stamp out any opposition and to succor the conquered people.  In the Christian tradition, C&A are a continuation of the Adam & Eve story.

    The sons try following their own paths.  Abel tends sheep and lives on unspoiled land, living simply as Adam & Eve did before they left Paradise.  He's the piece of human consciousness that wants to return to Paradise, by placating the Divine.  Live simply, honestly, do not upset the world but be it's caretaker and you will return to Paradise.  Cain is free will, ingenuity, cleverness, intelligence.  He is the piece that has the spark of self knowledge.  Cain killing Abel is our free will/self knowledge overcoming our ability to return to Paradise.  We need to be our own selves, to struggle and learn, before we can go back to Paradise.  Cain created tools, tilled the soil and changed the world to fit his needs based on his observations of his surroundings.  Where did he get these ideas from?  In his dreams, waking and sleeping.  Where do we find our stories, music and art? In dreams.  That is why the two are tied to Morpheus.  Dreams are often about powerful metaphors and their story has it in spades.

    3) Morpheus is the Prince of Dreams because humanity as a whole are the King of Dreams.  Like Death, Morpheus has a role to play.  Death doesn't cause death, she is the ferryperson, the angel (sound of her wings?) of death.  Morpheus is a collector of dreams.  He has what humans would perceive as power because they provide it to him.  In actuality, his role is to tend the dreams/nightmares, collect them, maybe help a little. I'm not sure, but I think that his true role will be made clearer as the series continues.  It's hard to know because he is so self-centered, which our dreams often are (focused on the self) that I think he often forgets his own purpose, caught up as he is in our powerful Dreaming.  And I think the sound of wings he hears are his own wings spreading as he realizes that he is more than an imprisoned being.

    That's all for now.  Can't wait to read more.

    -Matt


  • Joi, your questions about the "Prince of Stories" are excellent! For me Dream seems to leave people to fend for themselves within his realm... unless you really piss him off. And then you may be in serious trouble. 

    Really powerful mythologies help to explain the world going on around you... and mesh well with your experience of reality. They will confirm what you already have done and give insight into stuff never seen before so it is recognizable and manageable when it appears later.

    3 years before the first Sandman was ever published, I was having recurring nightmares of being bitten to death by poisonous snakes. Happened every night for about 2 - 3 weeks. More snakes were showing up every night. And it was taking it's toll on me. Then out of sheer desperation, I figured out how in the dream to turn myself into a mongoose and went hunting. At the heart of every problem is a gift waiting to be unwrapped.

    I Googled the phrase "Prince of Stories" and mostly references to Mr Gaiman come up.
    But the phrase does appear in an old Velvet Underground song released back in 1969.

    And then I found this:
    http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/28/neil-gaiman-lou-reed-sandman
  • Totz, your explanation of M's decision to not kill Dee is well thought and valid.
    It is one of many. There are others beyond mine and yours. I'm here to listen.

    I was disappointed in how The Sandman ended. 
    And I am hoping that by looking at it with other open minded people, I will find a lot of stuff that I missed and maybe I can turn that disappointment around. 
  • @MattTroedson: Death is older than Dream. I think Death is the oldest, then Destiny, then Dream, and it goes on from there (when you see the gallery in volume 2, I believe the sigils are ordered by age). It's a bit outside the scope of this volume, but I believe the intent is that the Endless are "born" in the order that their domains emerged in the universe. So Death is older than Dream, because living things were being born and dying before they had the capacity to think and dream.

    Along those lines, Daniel asked who wrote/is writing Destiny's book. My impression has always been that it writes itself, or that Destiny "writes" it in the act of reading it, or that it exists fully-formed as a law of the universe, which are really three ways of saying basically the same thing, since only Destiny reads from it and only at the same rate that its events occur so who would know the difference?

    Many thanks to @jynx and @reo for doing their homework!!
  • @Svithrir Thanks for the clarification on the birth order. I couldn't remember and your reasoning is sound.

    I also agree with you about who is writing Destiny's book.
  • A totally non-serious aside, but I have to tell this story. 

    Several of my friends in college got into Sandman around the same time, a few years before I read it. One of them, whom I will call J, had been reading Sandman non-stop for a while. He came down quite ill with an ear infection, and was trying to read to distract himself from the fever and pain. He'd been unable to sleep due to the discomfort, but finally managed a few hours one night. The next morning he woke up in a panic: "I don't know what just happened! I accidentally begged Morpheus to let me sleep, and it happened! What does it mean??? Did I just pray to a comic book character??" To this day, I still tease him about the time he prayed to Morpheus.
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