VOLUME VI Main Discussion

DanielDaniel
edited March 2014 in Weekly Book Discussions
(Helping out during the mini-Tour)

Here is the discussion thread for Sandman Vol. VI: Fables & Reflections!

Spoiler-free discussion here up to Vol. VI!  Take extra care with wikipedia links etc. to warn people if they might read more than they intend to.


Comments

  • DanielDaniel
    "I wish I could, Orpheus. She's not mine any more. She's in the Underworld. That's where you people go."

    So Death isn't always an end result - sometimes she's a courier.  (Death - For when it absolutely, positively has to be in the afterlife.)

    Or perhaps she more like a collector - Her Greek action figures go in the "Hades" box.
  • DanielDaniel
    I had thought what happened to Delight happened with modern times - But here is Delirium in ancient Greece?  

    Was it the ability of humans to reason that destroyed Delight? Or is this just the version that showed up?
  • DanielDaniel
    Having to follow the rules is a big theme in this book. But everyone who is following a rule is breaking one as well.

    Some examples (of a giant list)

    The Emperor has to rule, but he is taking a day off.

    Lucien is keeping the library in order, by sneaking around behind his master's back.

    The Emperor is ruling with a formal government, complete with it's own currency, but with no legal right to do so.

    (one of the many examples for Johanna) She follows Morpheus instructions to drink the dream wine, and in doing so, breaks the rules of forgetting when you awake.

    What does it mean to break rules, and what does it mean to follow them? What does that say about your character? And what does that say about a writers characters?

    At first I thought that it was important to show both, but I think the real value is that by showing what rules one upholds, the real meaning of the ones they break so much stronger (or vice versa, like two sides of a coin)

    24601
  • reo_1963reo_1963
    This is my favorite volume of the series. Every story is great. Each story can stand on it's own. And each story kind of messes with your expectations of what is allowed by a story world that just keeps getting bigger.

    I love the story of the Emperor of the US!

    The story of Ramadan contains some of the best calligraphy I've ever seen. Awesome story too.

    The story of the NJ transplants is great fun. I saw it that it was the love of the one hungry boy that kept him from eating the princess.

    There are lots of clues dropped in "Orpheus" as to the nature of the Endless. It's a tragic story otherwise. At the beginning we get to see Delight just being happy. Destruction appears for the first time and he reluctantly sends Orpheus to Death's house. Destruction also tells Orpheus that one of his sister's roles deals with everyone before they are born but no one remembers it. So Death could also be "Delivery".
    I have wondered if one of the reasons that Delight became Delirium was that she stole a look ahead at pages in Destiny's book but there is never any support given for this personal hypothesis. Del only states that she knows of possibilities beyond what is in Destiny's book (back in IV "Mists of Time") but she never says how she knows these things. Could madness be one of the occupational hazards of being an oracle? I really like how the artwork in the story of "Orpheus" is in a classical Greek style.

    The dream in "The Soft Places" and how time shifts and slides like sand breaks a story telling rule that stories be linear and logical. I took that when Fiddler's Green appeared in Marco Polo's time and described he was on the run, it meant circular time travel was being allowed. This is a very difficult plot device to handle well. The rest of the Sandman saga avoids it but it could have been employed at any point (Mr Gaiman says so in "The Sandman Companion" about this story in particular).

    Another expectation we are set up for... as it is never exercised. The story world just keeps getting bigger.
  • autographedcatautographedcat
    It's probably worth noting, rather than assuming that everyone knows, that Joshua Norton was, in fact, a real historical figure.

  • reo_1963reo_1963
    Yes!
    Huge spoilers in here but good background for who are the real historical figures: 
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandman:_Fables_&_Reflections

    Julius Caesar & Augustus = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Caesars    Thermidor = Robespierre & Saint-Just.

    Harun al-Rashid = I did not previously know this was a real person. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harun_al-Rashid
  • reo_1963reo_1963
    Another of the things I loved about "The Song of Orpheus" was the reweave of the start & ending...

    In kid friendly versions, it ends with Eurydice being pulled away.
    In adult versions, it ends with the grief stricken Orpheus committing suicide or he is ripped apart by Maenads. His head and body are buried and that is that.
    But not so in Sandman.

    Mr Gaiman relates in "The Sandman Companion" that on one his signing tours when fans were asking him what story line was coming next, he said the story of Orpheus. And they either misheard him say this as Morpheus or ask who is that? And these were the intelligent, well educated fans... He realized he would have to cover the original story.

    In the Edith Hamilton version (from Apollinus of Rhodes, Virgil, & Ovid), Orpheus's father is a Tracian prince and his mother is one of the 9 Muses. Some accounts place her as Calliope.
    Orpheus even sometimes shows up in Jason and the Argonauts as an Argonaut with Hercules.
    But Mr Gaiman is the first I had heard of who made Morpheus the father of Orpheus... which is just bloody brilliant! 
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus
    (The Brits may get their knickers in a twist over the raw language there but they live with it.)

    How many people here had not heard at least one version of the "Orpheus & Eurydice" story before finding it in Sandman?

    I'm glad he did cover it because of the opportunity to weave in the entire Endless family.

    And Morpheus royally messes up when Calliope asks him to dance.
    Dream King or not, good omens or bad omens,
    when a Muse asks you to dance, you dance.
  • autographedcatautographedcat
    Cool!  I didn't know about Harun al-Rashid either!  
  • AK_BeckyAK_Becky
    Don't have as much to say about this volume, although I DID enjoy it, so just some random thoughts. 

    I am among those that learned a little Greek mythology in elementary school, was totally enthralled by it, and never forgot (even continuing to pursue study on my own time). Not to mention the fact that Orpheus does show up in other famous stories and plays, and the story of him and Eurydice is also an opera, aside from just being a classic epic tragedy that is loved by musicians everywhere. I am a bit surprised that some may not know the backstory, but glad that Neil Gaiman decided to put his own spin on it. LOVE that whole section, even though it is heartbreaking. 

    Also, can you imagine having Morpheus for a father? Especially cold, seemingly heartless Morpheus of the past? Talk about causing daddy issues. I mean, the fact that Orpheus doesn't appear to be even more screwed up than he is, is rather astonishing. 

    I found "The Parliament of Rooks" chapter to be especially fascinating. I really like how we get to see vastly different aspects of each character as they take turns telling a story to the child that wanders into the dreaming. I also really enjoy that we get to SEE that child again, see what is becoming of him, and what exactly Dream meant when he said that Daniel "belonged to the Dreaming". I'm not totally clear on who Eve is really supposed to be, since they all seem to argue so much about her origin story and tell different versions (and she insists that she is NOT Cain's mother). Then again, it is implied that the genesis story didn't actually happen on earth, so who is to say which world or even universe they are each from? I suppose she could just be an archetype that the Eve story is based on, just as Cain and Abel aren't supposed to be literally JUST Cain and Abel. Definitely something to ponder. 
  • SvithrirSvithrir
    "Fables and Reflections." With the exception of Todd Faber in the beginning, every story in this volume includes figures from history or myth: Emperor Norton, Robespierre, Baba Yaga and Koschei the Deathless, Julius and Augustus, Marco Polo, Orpheus and Eurydice, Adam and Eve, Haroun Al-Raschid.

    The glass heart shows up again, and it's properly green this time.

    The story of Orpheus here deviates from the traditional form of the myth in a subtle but important way. Hades stipulates that Orpheus can't look back until both he and Eurydice had left the underworld. In the myth, Orpheus makes it all the way out, but forgets himself and looks back before Eurydice has a chance to follow him into the light. Here, he loses faith and looks back while they're both still in the cave. That changes the story dramatically. No longer is it a tragedy of human frailty and the capriciousness of the gods; now it's a failure of Orpheus's character specifically.

    I love "The Parliament of Rooks." Although they remain vague, we get some great insight into Eve, Cain, and Abel. I particularly love how this story builds upon the conflict between Cain and Abel in terms of mysteries and secrets. It came up in the volume I discussion that, before SANDMAN, Cain was host of the DC series "House of Mystery," and Abel was host of "House of Secrets." By putting them together, and providing the story about the rooks as an example, the story builds on their dynamic beautifully. A mystery, after all, is primarily a question, whereas a secret is an answer. A mystery, something apart to be solved; a secret, something close to be kept or shared. No wonder Cain torments Abel; Abel has the secrets to answer all of Cain's best mysteries. And yet they need each other. ("I'll… I'll see you tomorrow then. It's your turn to make dinner. Take care of yourself.")

    Also maiden-mother-crone again. Also Abel's story omg. ("Endless Babies, we make our dreams come true…")
  • DanielDaniel
    @reo_1963 "The story of the NJ transplants"

    I kept thinking "Who's he talking about? I don't remember any story about people from NJ". I had to read the book over again to spot that Vassily and his granddaughter were in in NJ now.
    There's something there about perceptions and labeling and history)

    This is a very bitter-sweet story for me. My great-grandparents and grandparents came over from Russia, And Vassily is very much like how my grandfather was. (He passed on in his 50's, well before this comic came out) And while I was growing up with them, I was very much the child that cared about toys and tv, rather than hearing stories.  I was much younger than the granddaughter in this story (Do we ever find out her name? I had thought it was Vassily at the start of the story, but the end makes it clear that it was referring to the grandfather. Or maybe they have the same name, and that's part of why passing this down is so important to him?) and yet, if i had one of those past advice moments, it would be 'patience'. 
    They were very "Old Country", and I think there was also a Roma line passing through my Grandmother that she tried to pass down to me. In many ways, I was just too young, though.

    I also want to tie this into what @AK_Becky was saying about Daniel's story. "Daniel" has become a much more commonly used name in the last 15 years or so, but it wasn't that common then, the J's S's and B's were used far more often. So it was neat to have another "Hey, that's me!" moment in the story.

    And that's something I try to keep a hold of in my own work, that everyone likes to have that "that's about me" moment in a story. And that reminds me why it's so important to have gender choices for "your" character in games, if the gender has to be in there at all.


     
  • DanielDaniel
    @Svithrir  Regarding the Todd Faber story - it too, has a figure from traditional myth. I think it's important to have the story set apart from the others, highlighted from by including it before the introduction.

    A writer that's close to finishing, characters all set to go - losing faith in his work and wanting to walk away....The dream he has feels like it's taken directly from one that Gaiman was having with himself. I don't have any references for this, it does seem like a universal writers moment. "Everyone's going to hate this."
      And then we have the story continue, with the play continuing and the curtain going up on Act One: Three Septembers and a January, and then continuing with the rest of the acts, to form a larger play that's a collection of short stories. 

    Perhaps this adds another layer - to suggest that this is a way it could have happened, not necessarily the way it did happen.
     

  • SvithrirSvithrir
    @Daniel: You're absolutely right that Todd Faber needs to be set apart. It's an excellent framing device, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was semi-autobiographical. Faber's characters, like Gaiman's, are taken from myth and history. Instead of "God, Sappho, the Hanged Man, the Slave of the Lamp, and Typhoid Mary," we have god-emperors, a Greek poet, beheaded men, a flying carpet, and… Morpheus?

    I was just thinking about "that's about me" feelings in the volume V thread! Specifically, tying it back to volume III and "A Midsummer Night's Dream." ("Did he say 'Peaseblossom'? That's my name! What did he say?") It's funny you should mention it here, I got to have a little moment like that myself in this volume: Harun is the Arabic form of Aaron.
  • SvithrirSvithrir
    Oh, I should probably mention since I doubt it's common knowledge: The power to transform into animals, especially a wolf or bear, is a heroic trait throughout Russian folklore. Russian werewolves like Vassily here are heroes, not monsters.
  • DanielDaniel
    Some notes on the tale of Orpheus in Hades:

    This tale holds the the story as represented in "Bulfinch's Mythology"*, including the ending. I've read many variation on it as well, including one that had the furies whispering in his ears all the way out, as well as another one suggesting that the voices of fear and doubt that we have may be internal, or they may come from external spirits. @Svithrir , I think you're splitting hairs here that don't need to be split - exactly where he was varies based on the teller, i think, and I would say that with any version, it could be about his personal failings and the human condition - that's what myths are all about. "Don't look back, just keep moving on" and yet this whole tale is brought about because Orpheus is constantly looking back, because he can't move on. (An almost opposite tale of Charles and Edwin, complete with Orpheus seeking Death, both metaphorically and literally, and Edwin refusing Death) 

    "From Thrace to Macedonia, To Thessaly (Where the witches gnaw the flesh from men's faces for their spells, and pull down the moon for their own purposes)" - sound like someone we know?

    Death's Place - Is that what her Gallery looks like? The picture of her family on the wall all together? Or does she not need one, because she's only going to call her family once?

     Destruction is awfully helpful and kind - Or is it his style to destroy with kindness? If he had not sent Orpheus to Death, how different would the story have been? Could that have been involved in his reasons for leaving?

    Persephone is far more active in this tale, than the myths I've read - She actually gets to speak, and acts like an equal ruler. 

    *On Bulfinch's Mythology:
    It's a very common collection to run into, mainly because it's been so heavily altered to be 'more entertaining' and to "expurgated of all that would be offensive".  This also leaves out and alters many important details, but makes it 'safe' for the classroom and school libraries. 

  • SvithrirSvithrir
    edited April 2014
    You're right, of course, that there are many variations of the Orpheus tale, as there are for any myth. My apologies for not taking that into account in my earlier comment.

    I still think there's a difference between making a conscious decision to give up and look back on the one hand, and turning as an impulse or reflex on the other. But reading that page of the comic again, it's possible I'm reading more of the former to the exclusion of the latter than is intended.
  • DanielDaniel
    Ah, I didn't see your other example as being reflexive, i just thought you were going for a "letter of the law" example. I agree the "Hey, is everything going ok back there?" reaction would make it a totally different story. 


    Something I forgot to mention before (work called, that's why my timestamp is weird on that last one)

    I never see anyone talk about what Eurydice wanted. There are many realms to Hades, what if Orpheus was taking her from the Elysian Fields? (Heaven) 
     She may have been happy for a little bit, but would it have lasted?
  • Joi_the_ArtistJoi_the_Artist
    edited April 2014
    Just finished reading this volume. Here are my initial thoughts: 

    I love the way Morpheus is drawn in this first story. He’s
    elongated and inhuman, but not as cold. This is also one of my favorite quotes:
    “Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when you
    fall, you fly.”

    I also love the Emperor Norton story. He’s one of my
    favorite characters in American history.

    Here is another moment of declared identity. Joshua simply
    decides that he is Emperor, and acts accordingly. And many people treated him,
    in at least some way, as such. Also, his proclamation about Clemens/Twain ends
    up being true. Twain is, arguably, the quintessential American storyteller.
    Norton gives Clemens/Twain an identity that is real and true. Norton cannot
    even be tempted by Desire to become a “real” emperor, because he knows he is
    one in any way that matters to him. “I am the Emperor of the United States…I
    am content to be what I am. What more than that could any man desire?”

    There are a lot of stories of empire-building here, and the
    cost of it: Norton, Revolutionary France, the Rome of the Julius and Augustus Caesar.
    Norton chooses to remain a man, and not over-reach: he is remembered with great
    love. Robespierre rules in blood, and dies screaming at the hands of the mob he
    created. Julius assaults his nephew (possibly as the price for creating his
    empire), and Augustus sees to it that Rome
    will fall, though that fall is hundreds of years in the future.

    Would it be fair to say that this is still about identity,
    but now we are talking about the identity of nations?

    Lovely to see Chesterton/Fiddler’s Green again. A lovely nod
    to his essay about waiting for trains. Fitting for him to be here with Marco
    Polo; Chesterton was a great lover and describer of cities, too. Chesterton,
    along with Charles Williams’ novel “All Hallows Eve,” made me fall in love with
    cities.

    How does the Orpheus myth fit with the theme of identity?

    Ramadan: more identity of city. 

  • Joi_the_ArtistJoi_the_Artist
    Some notes on the Orpheus story. I was obsessed with Greek mythology as a kid, and have known the story for as long as I can remember. It's one of my favorites. Two of my all-time favorite albums are inspired by the story. 

    I am completely in love with Anais Mitchell's album, "Hadestown," which is a reimagining of the Orpheus story in a Depression-era alternative America. (I first heard of this album on Marian's radio show, bought it immediately afterward, and still can't stop listening to it. It's that good.) 

    There's also an Orpheus-esque rock opera (or concept album. I'm not entirely clear on the difference, to be honest) "Broken Bride," by Ludo. It's got a time-traveling scientist, dinosaurs, a zombie apocalypse, and the Dragon from the book of Revelations. Oh, and it's about losing one's true love to death. Well worth the listen.
  • reo_1963reo_1963
    Daniel:  Glad you found it. The great thing is you have memories of your grandparents & great-grandparents.

    Joi: I liked "Hadestown" (heard it performed live on some NPR called "E-town") but will have to look for "Broken Bride".

    Svithrir: had no idea Russian heroes could turn into animals. I like that!

    AK_Becky: How could a pagan not love mythology?    :)


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