VOLUME V Main Discussion
(Helping out during the mini-Tour)
Here is the discussion thread for Sandman Vol. V: A Game of You!
I would ask that writers be aware that there are sensitive topics going on here, and if you are unsure of anything, please take a look at the Ground Rules here: http://mariancall.com/vanilla/discussion/3/enter-sandman-read-me-first#Item_1 "Be excellent to each other"
I would ask that the readers be aware that everything that happened in the book is up for discussion, and it certainly will be talked about at some point.
Comments
Wow. What a set of stories & set of ideas! From how people with difference are treated to key Freudian principles.
The change in (artistic) treatment of Wanda - how she was drawn when first introduced as a sort of awkward, not looking too right woman through to Barbie's dream at the end when she's a sort of elegant, graceful woman - is great and gives a view into how perceptions of people change over time. Not that we're looking at her with Barbie's eyes, but the eyes of society or the average person. You notice first what's off about the other person & then find her/his humanity & grace. Initially Wanda's face is too big for the rest of her. She's drawn gangly & big.
I've had experience in my past work with people who grew up in small middle American towns & have to hide their "difference" when they go home for their parents' as well as their own sake, the same as Wanda's aunt asks Barbie to call Wanda "Alvin" because it would cause his parents too much pain to think of him as "Wanda." They go home to a "standard" "man's life," e.g. hunting, fishing, but never mention that the life lived here in NY is a gay one. They even know that people in the town engage in man-on-man & woman-on-woman sex but no one is "gay." It's just not talked about & not admitted to because to admit to it would lead to ostracism of themselves and their parents, which is death in a small community. At most the women who live together are just considered "spinsters" and that's the end of it. Sort of a very archaic view but one that's "necessary" by the rules of the society in which they live (small town mind-set.)
It strikes me as sad that anyone has to his his/her nature, even though we all wear masks of some sort to get through the day. What we choose to show or hide isn't always determined solely by us & this seems to be one of the principles being explored in this set of stories. Wanda is in New York where she doesn't have to hide who she (I started to type "he" at both of those pronouns in this sentence) is. When she does home, which she does, though it's in a box, she is hidden by her parents who have to think of her as "him." Wanda chose not to go home. The choice was taken from her by Dream's sister, Death, who took her away as Wanda, not Alvin.
Obviously the fact that the enemy is a cuckoo feeds directly into that, given its strategy of laying its eggs in other birds' nests and its hatchlings killing the other young around it.
And at the same time, there's the way Wanda is handled. She's accepted as being female by her fellow tenants, but the moon refuses to, as does her family.
I wonder if the moon and its magic are just stuck in an old way of thinking to deny Wanda her femininity, or if Thessaly was making an assumption about how the moon would treat her.
I don't know. There's a lot about how most of the plot treats Wanda that makes me wonder. I do believe that Neil Gaiman respected her as being a her, though, given the way Barbie thinks of Wanda at the end, and the way Death takes her away, fully feminine.
Hazel seems to briefly question her own sexual identity as a lesbian, given the circumstances and results of her one-night stand, ultimately coming to the conclusion that it doesn't matter, as she loves Foxglove and they're happy together.
Though, I suppose that the main theme being one of identity is unsurprising given that the story is called A Game of You...
First is when he turns back and tells Nuala that she did the right thing. It takes him a moment to realize that she needs it, but he's able to empathize with the fact that she's new to the Dreaming, was forced to remain there (given away by her people, and unwanted by Morpheus), and feels alone and uncertain. She also witnessed what Morpheus did to Azazel, and that he can be cruel to those who disappoint him, so she's more than a little scared about screwing up. That he recognizes at least some of those things and thinks to reassure her reflects a growing maturity.
The other time comes at the end when he chooses not to mete out serious and immediate punishment to Thessaly, Hazel and Foxglove. He's mad that they trespassed in his domain, but he understands that Hazel and Foxglove meant no harm, and only meant to help their friend. It's still a punishment to leave them there, but they could have survived in the dreaming, and found their own place as residents of it. Rather lenient compared to earlier punishments.
What I noticed was how it Barbie's loyalists (who seemed male to me) all sacrificed their lives for her (their queen). Most of the female characters lived. Wanda and the old woman died protecting Barbie. And I think that is one of the big points of this story. That is it the role of men and very old women to protect younger women and children when the chips are down. Yes, it is sexist. I am old school. Sue me.
In the "Sandman Companion" there is a bit that Mr Gaiman wanted to point out to the practitioners of the white washed pagan movement that was going around in the early 90's what real witchcraft was about: old gods, blood, and very strict rules. It's nice that Barbie has a dream where Wanda is female: an appropriate reward for that hero(ine).
Hazel & Foxglove turn up in a later story about Death. "The Time of Your Life". I like their characters there too.
Also, @Daniel:
"Murphy" is just a corruption of Morpheus, probably the way Barbie mispronounced it as a child, which stuck as the characters in her dream were created by her.
And "Thessalian" is probably just the name Thessaly was using back then, and she's just updated her name here and there to better match the times. Hob Gadling changes his name every so often for the same reason.
I have a fuzzy idea of where I'm going with this, just not clear how to get there. I'll probably get it around 3 or 4 AM.
I like what Daniel did with a gag around "Murphy." Yes, it probably is a mispronunciation of Morpheus but it's a good question because it is Murphy's (Morpheus') domain so any law there is will be "Murphy's law."
The Moon also calls her Thessalian. The Moon and Morpheus both suggest that she is far older than she seems, and Morpheus calls her one of a group. I was always under the impression that she was the last of a group of "witches" of some sort from Thessaly, but I never really thought about how well that ties into the themes of identity present in the volume. In fact, since Hazel and Foxglove are both plants, I always thought they were not their birth names - while that might be a stretch, it would mean that none of that group in the real world go by their "real" name - Thessaly, Wanda, Foxglove, Hazel, even George would all be assumed names, or names they gave themselves.
Even more reason why Thessaly, some kind of elder witch, would use Hazel and Foxglove. Not only are they the only biological women, an apparent necessary distinction that I've seen in other Urban Fantasy and (regular) fantasy tales, but they are also botanicals that are associated with mythology and witchcraft.
The false dichotomy the Cuckoo sites is exactly to what I was alluding when I said that we get a dose of Freudian theory in this volume and, in fact, it's one of the clearest and briefest explanation of this particular piece of fantasy that Freud delineates that I've seen.
The "boy" fantasy that the Cuckoo states isn't really a dichotomy but a secondary stage of the initial belief. The initial belief by the child, of either gender, is that, after viewing how other parents behave towards their children, that the child must be adopted or a step-child of some sort and just needs to be reunited with his or her "real" parents, who are always better, perhaps nobler, than the parents the child has now. Royalty is one of the possibilities, hence Princess Barbie.
The second phase of the fantasy is sexualized (according to Freud) in which the child, more often the boy in Freud's description) becomes competition for the parent of the same gender for the parent of the opposite gender. In a boy's option that would be about becoming more powerful than Dad, which could lead to the superhero idea expressed by the Cuckoo. Freud doesn't speak of superheros.
The Cuckoo is telling a story and just wants Princess Barbie to do what it wants to get to the porpentine & be able to fly away so it can foul other nests with its offspring. It's a separation of two pieces of psychology to try to appeal to Princess Barbie.
Back to Thessaly for a moment: according to Wikipedia, which we all know is infallible, the ancient Thessalian witches were known for Moon magic, especially the ritual of "Drawing Down the Moon."
I have been thinking about this book SO MUCH and I think it might be the most difficult volume for me to wrestle with as an artist. I have so much to share but it's still being shaped in my mind!
You are all amazing and thank you for being here. I look forward to working on this more with you and a very lengthy post is coming the minute I have time. Now I finally have a moment, but my battery's about to die and that will be that.
The names are amazing and illuminating -- I never thought about it, but thank you for pointing it out.
So much to say about Wanda, Barbie, Thessaly, Hazel, and Foxglove. So much to say! This bizarre quintet of women fascinates me.
It must be very very interesting inside Gaiman's head.
Uh oh shutting down. love to all - Marian
" But here the influence of sex is already in evidence, for a boy is far more inclined to feel hostile impulses towards his father than towards his mother and has a far more intense desire to get free from him than from her. In this respect the imagination of girls is apt to show itself much weaker. These consciously remembered mental impulses of childhood embody the factor which enables us to understand the nature of myths."
This book, Volume 5, seems to be about coming of age. Very much like Labyrinth, Barbie is confronting her dreamworld which, we're told in chapter 6, Into The Night, in The Doll's House, are "...more valid and true than anything she feels when waking," as Rose is able to see into everyone's dreams.
As Barbie's Dreamworld crumbles she has to deal with loss. She wipes off the veil that she's drawn on her face for Wanda's funeral and let's someone (other than her house mates, who, except for Wanda, are some form of extension of her life in The Doll's House) see her actual face. She slowly loses them all, dream companions and "real world" helpers and has to build a new life in this world without the romantic dream of childhood as her constant escape. Perhaps she begins to have new, "adult" dreams and an adult life where she's not a "doll."
Barbie's life in the "real" world is saved by a virtual stranger, Maisie (Maisie=maize=corn? Another botanical name?) towards whom Barbie has shown a kindness that Barbie considered so trivial she didn't notice to whom she was kind. A selfless act that was repaid. A human kindness, not a Princess bestowing a gift on a subject repaid by a human bestowing "the ultimate gift" to another human. Maisie dies protecting Barbie in this world the same as Martin Tenbones dies in this world protecting Barbie except that Maisie is protecting her from a danger in this world, not (apparently) from the Cuckoo.
Not having read farther in the series than this I can only wonder (and please, let me be surprised) what lies in store for Barbie, Hazel, Foxglove and Thessaly. How do they cope after these events with being in the "real" world and still subject to "Murphy's law."
Interesting female archetypes. Barbie, the princess, the “little
lady.” Hazel, the innocent. Thessaly, the witch. Wanda, the trans woman. And there’s
the triple goddess again: Fox (maiden), Hazel (mother), and Thessaly
(crone.)
For most of us, we don’t begin telling stories verbally or
in writing. We begin telling stories with our toys, with play.
This volume is weird, and disturbing, and I never know what
to think of it, and it’s still my favorite. I have never known why, but it is.
Not overly fond of most of the art in this section, but Thessaly’s conversation with the moon is gorgeously
minimalistic. Lovely.
The danger of giving things life is risking having them die.
Barbie’s childhood toys die; most of us don’t have to face that with our toys,
but if you tell a really good story, with characters that come to life, those
characters may also have to die. If authors have responsibilities to their characters, what
of the characters and stories we create as children? Do we owe those
characters, so often incarnated in our toys, anything? Most of us seem to hang
on to a few of our most cherished toys long into adulthood. Do we feel
responsible for them? For what we’ve done to them?
Is the scene where all the inhabitants of the land walk back
and disappear into Morpheus’ cloak an intentional reference to C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle?
In regards to identity: is it that “whole world” inside all of us that
Barbara talks about? Does erasing someone’s identity erase that whole world? The moon refuses to admit Wanda as a woman, but the gods in Sandman are hardly all-knowing or particularly concerned with what is right. Even the Endless aren't that way; why should we take the moon's word for it? Also, it should be remembered, it turns out to be incredibly destructive to walk that path; the things Thessaly wants are not good things, and she truly does not care who or what she destroys in order to get what she wants.
@Svithrir: LOVE the Oz-in-reverse reading. That's really interesting.
In "The Sandman Companion" this book is noted as being the least popular. It is Mr Gaiman's favorite.
Not mine. I did not put a lot of energy into the analysis.
Tantoblin - Luz refers to Tantoblin twice with masculine pronouns on page 1 of #32. (Book 1)
Martin Tenbones - masculine name (Martin rather than Martina) and Luz refers to him with masculine pronouns at the end of #32.
George - clearly male.
Wilkinson - the mouse in the hat & trench coat. Looks like a male outfit to me. He later refers to all of his brother and sisters all named "Wilkinson" which was especially hard on the girls (rather than it being "hard on us girls"). So I thought of him as male.
Prinando - in the middle of #33 when Barbie reaches her troop, Wilkinson introduces Prinando (the monkey in the hat) as the gentleman in the hat.
Luz - and Wilkinson introduces this character as a her. Wow! I missed one. OK. But this character does not lay down it's life to defend Barbie. It's a traitor. The character is killed (or sacrificed like a piece in chess) by the Cuckoo when Thess, Fox, & Hazel appear. But it's not Luz's gender that turned her against Barbie. I imagined Luz succumbed to the same fate as when the Cuckoo laid it on heavy to Barbie - even Barbie wanted the Cuckoo to live and be happy. And Luz must have folded even faster.
One thing I totally missed that was mentioned in "The Sandman Companion" for this book was that Allanora was a former lover of Morpheus (mentioned in earlier books. Really? OK, if Mr Gaiman says so.)
The other thing mentioned in "The Sandman Companion" is that this story is very similar to Jonathan Carroll's 1988 book "Bones of the Moon". And it turns out they were both fans of each other's work and talked about it. Have to add that book to my reading list.
And yes, C.S. Lewis is in the stack of books in Barbie's bedroom in Florida (also from "TSC"). So any resemblance to "The Last Battle" may be quite intentional.
If they had not pulled the moon down, there would have been no hurricane, the building would not have fallen down, and Wanda & Maisie would not have had to die in such a way. Mr Gaiman may have crafted their deaths in another way. But the chain of events triggered by Thess's code to take any affront with murderous retribution gained nothing for Barbie.
The chess game played by the good Queen (Barbie) and an evil Queen (the Cuckoo) was totally lopsided in evil's favor. I paint the Cuckoo as evil because her motivations were based on selfishness. Barbie was good in that she was acting altruistically for her childhood imaginary friends. The surprise for both "Queens" was to find they were merely pawns in a deal between Morpheus and one of his former girlfriends. And that for Barbie & The Cuckoo, eventually they both grew and changed for the better. Wanda & Maisie (also both Queens) both died but we were shown in Barbie's dream that Wanda grew and changed and became a real woman. I pray that Maisie got to be reunited with her grandson or similarly grew and changed into what she wanted in the afterlife. After the dream land was unmade, the characters progressed and evolved. Which I see as one of the positive functions of dreams - they help us to see that difficult changes can eventually lead to good things.
I believe the author's responsibility to their characters is moot.
The larger concern for the author is: how do I hook my audience to care about my characters?
Failure to do so results in the author having to get another job.
I agree with Joi, though, regarding Morpheus's involvement (or lack thereof, rather). He explicitly takes a "wait and see" approach to the skerry. In fact, I think the entire chess metaphor is ill-fitting. Neither Barbie nor the Cuckoo is trying to win by attrition or maneuver the other into checkmate. It's a simple case of the hunter and the hunted. Barbie doesn't even know what to do to "defeat" the Cuckoo at this point, she just wants to get to the hierogram safely. As for the Cuckoo being evil, she certainly seems that way up to the destruction of the hierogram, but then Morpheus specifically brings that into question.
I strongly disagree that Wanda "grew and changed and became a real woman." The point is that Wanda was a real woman all along, despite other characters' protests.
I take the Moon's point of view. It's the chromosomes you are born with that make a person technically & physically male or female. Society has a lot of baggage about what are "male" and "female" characteristics and traits and roles are (which I say are a total load of hooey) but that is stuff for every person to work through - to be some working combination of that traditional "male" & "female" trait/role mix.
If Wanda is already physically female, there is no point to her appearing in Barbie's dream at the end as more female.
But I like the idea that we can both be right.
What do you say?
Joi, I'm not so sure it was a gift. Morpheus tells Allanora their "compact" has reached an end. I took that as it was a formal agreement or deal they had made. Yes, long forgotten, but it was no game.
***
As for the chess game, now this is all my opinion so here goes. The Cuckoo is indeed winning by attrition and she does maneuver Barbie into a checkmate when she takes over her mind and gets her to smash the necklace on the hierogram. The Cuckoo is very happy that she has finally won. And then she seems very surprised when Morpheus appears and says: this is my realm. Morpheus does ask for silence but they all appear rather awed when the whole realm then proceeds to go marching into his sleeve. Barbie and The Cuckoo were not pawns or queens in some game of his. He did not even know they were there. But Barbie and The Cuckoo and all their supporters acted that way.
I took all this to be a huge allegory for what we all think we are striving and questing for is not what is really going on in reality at all - that there is a larger and broader event happening that we are not even aware of. That we cannot hope to even comprehend it. That it would not even make sense to us if we heard the words. One of the functions of dreams is that the subconscious is trying to gently introduce some overwhelming/shattering truth to the conscious. That the "Game of You" is about this huge illusion - that reality never was about any single one of us. We are all minor background characters in some much bigger play going on with characters and themes that we know nothing about but yet we think that we do.
That if we play our background parts well, we will be rewarded - just as Wanda/Alvin finally gets his/her wish.
The clues are right in front of us, fully displayed in plain sight, and still no one gets it.
This may be why Mr Gaiman likes this "least liked Sandman volume" the best of all 10.
Just my opinion. And it's still not my favorite volume.
But I will try to respond to reo's comment. I do not like the idea that we can both be right, not least because someone else's sex is not up to you or I. People are entitled to their identities. If we ignore what they tell us about who they are, then that's on us.
Wanda is a woman; that's how she identifies, and that's how the story (if not all its characters) treats her from beginning to end. In the end, Barbie's reaction isn't that Wanda looks "more female." It's simply that she looks gorgeous.
I have no problem with someone's preferred self gender identity. That is some person's choice.
But the hard science is hard science.
You can say all you like that the moon is made of cheese.
All the people in the land can say the emperor's new suit is grand - when in fact, the emperor is naked.
The hard science DNA says either: XX or XY or maybe even XXY or XYY (for this medical condition or whatever the politically correct phrase for that is these days).
It has nothing to do with religion or morality.
I go with the hard science and logic on this one. And that is my hangup.
Know that this topic (about this particular story) it has been debated before. We are not the first ones here.
I am not looking to change anyone's mind. But I am not going to play dumb so as to not offend (or that once again my Karma has run over someone's Dogma). What I am searching for is a way to show that all opinions expressed here are good and valid. And as Marian requested, we can all be excellent to one another.
Because of the conversational exchange of listening and honesty, we all grow richer.
I am going to try a bit of distraction because this may be a very raw nerve for some.
The interesting thing is it looks like a "Morpheus" movie in Hollywood is finally in the works.
And it's very interesting that Marian started this book club at just this time.
-----------------------------------
I've talked before about how reading these books had been different for me this time around. Another instance appears in this story:
In the end, we were without power for 4 days, without heat for the month of November, I lost my car, and my wife's office building was wrecked. She's been in a temporary building since then, and might be moving back finally in a week or two. And with all that, I feel lucky, compared to what some others went through.
Svithrir - totally missed George saying that, both in the reading and earlier comment, so thanks!
Was Wanda born sexually male? Yes. Genetically, would she be sexed as male? Most likely (though even there, as you pointed out, not everyone fits neatly into XY or XX). Speaking strictly of biological sex and not gender, male is the correct term. However, her gender is feminine. And as woman is a gendered social term, calling her a woman does not violate science or logic, just the social conventions of the time period of this comic.
I will be sure to follow that link later - I thought Levitt did a fine job directing Don Jon... but that's a very different sort film from what I'd expect to develop out of The Sandman. (Also, I would hope the rumor was directing only, not starring and directing! I enjoy his work but can NOT picture him as any of the main characters to date.... and now I'm trying. Stop, brain.)
I, meanwhile, will be investigating ways to become both a wave and a particle in my dreams tonight.
I think Barbie would still be walking into a shop to buy her comic today. Just in terms of story telling, it makes better visuals and allows for character interaction in a way that using a website... doesn't. Hopefully though, the joke would be more how different the shop is from the expectations built up by pop culture (looking at you, Big Bang Theory). Also, today's shoppers who also happen to be ladies can turn to the internet for reviews on the safety/friendliness of particular physical comic shops. Hooray for Tumblrs like haterfreewednesdays!