VOLUME III Main Discussion

Here is the discussion thread for Sandman Vol. III: Dream Country!

Go ahead and jump in anytime, but please avoid spoilers that take us beyond the bounds of Volume III (especially Wikipedia links).

If you do have spoiler-ish comments, you may post them in white text if you must!

I'll be in tomorrow much of the day to discuss, but kick it off anytime.  Thank you for reading!
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  • My notes from this volume:

    I love this story of the Muse. I mean, it’s awful, but it’s a great story. Do creators have responsibilities towards their inspiration? The story doesn’t seem to suggest that abuse of one’s inspiration (whatever that may mean) is ok if you get good art out of it. Does some art come with too high a cost? Could Richard Madoc have written the same works without abusing Calliope? 

    Is it significant that the bezoar is a trichinobezoar, resulting from Rapunzel Syndrome, which is very strong feminine imagery? 


    Panel at the top of page 18 is possibly an homage to Andrew Wyeth: http://www.arts-wallpapers.com/art-wallpaper-org/artists/artist/andrew-wyeth/img12w2.jpg  Very nice touch. Possibly relevant: this is a painting of Helga, Wyeth’s muse for decades. 

    Is there any significance to Madoc’s ankh earring in the last bit of the story?

    Morpheus can forgive now, but is it too late?

    I love “Dream of A Thousand Cats”! It’s the first real glimpse we get of a non-humanoid Dream. Presses the idea of dreams shaping reality.

    Shakespeare makes a deal with Dream, and is granted the ability to write unforgettable stories. Richard Madoc takes Calliope (after making a deal with Fry) and uses her to give him the ability to write unforgettable stories. One seems good, the other not. Is it because Shakespeare’s deal only involves the gift itself (i.e., he must use the gift to create two plays for Morpheus) whereas Madoc’s involves using another being to get the result? Does Shakespeare already have this talent in him, ready to be unlocked, while Madoc’s is a sham? If so, does this relate to true and false stories? 

    Also, Shakespeare wants to tell stories, and ends up with immortal fame; Madoc wants to use the stories to get fame. Shakespeare is serving the work, while Madoc serves only himself. And yet, Shakespeare is so busy serving his work, he does not remember to be truly present with his family. Is this ok? It doesn’t seem so. Continues the theme of betrayal by family. Also: Madoc and Fry abuse Calliope and get temporary success and fame, but it does not last. Fry dies alone and nearly forgotten, with his books out of print. Madoc is likely to go the same way. But Shakespeare's stories endure.

    Oberon refers to Morpheus as “Shaper,” the literal meaning of the Greek name. Strongly relates to his identity as a creator. 

    Betrayals of family so far: Cain and Abel, Dream and Desire, Jed and his father’s family, Shakespeare and Hamnet, 

    Robin Goodfellow: “This is magnificent—and it is true! It never happened; yet it is still true! What magic art is this?” True stories. 

    What does it mean to play real people in front of those people, doing and saying things they never said or did? Does it affect the truth of the story? 

    Note the reference to Orpheus! “The riot of the tipsy bacchanals, tearing the Thracian singer in their rage.” 


    Façade: Rainie spends her life hiding; when she must go out, she creates a false story about herself. Invents a backstory, invents a new face. In one sense, the face is true: it’s what she looked like. But it’s not true, because she’s changed; clinging to the past is pretense/lying.

    The image of Rainie’s body literally being remolded by Ra is very disturbing to me. I’m still not sure why.

    So sad: Rainie keeps all of her old faces, she can’t bear to throw away what she thinks is a part of her, though it’s just dead material that looks the way she did 5 years ago. But even though she hangs on to them, she uses them as ashtrays. What a picture of self-loathing. 

    Is this the first time we see the acceptance of change so closely linked to death?

  • edited March 2014
    Not all of the faces were ashtrays, you can see some hanging on the walls in the background. It's just that lately it's....been rough. When she uses them as ashtrays, it's the inside of the face she covers with ash. 

    In someways, we have the story of life across these tales. The young maiden, the new mother, a story of family (Will and Hamnet relationship, The parental figures of the Fae over the humans, The play about young adulthood, and starting new lives) and the Elder, full of power, with the wisdom not to use it. Drawn inward from outside appearances.

    They also all have an element of female abuse. 
    Calliope
    Forcefully taking the children from their mother.
    Forcing love (though a potion)
    Ra manhandling (that world gets real scary when you think about it) Rainie, reshaping her in an image that he desires.


    There's a phrase that stuck out in my mind in the first story 'Not after what he DID to me. He hates me for that...) That not how a problem is usually phrased. I feel like there's more to that, but this one is like chasing a flutterby.

    Usually, the story of a muse is a one time encounter, unless it's an 80's love story (like Xanadu). Was this intended to mirror that tale, to take it to a darker place, to make it a tale of warning, like the old fairy tales (such as Red Riding Hood)

    Both Madoc and Fry seem to do fine without Calliope. Eventually, Fry trades her for just another item for his collection. Madoc does eventually provide her with some clothes, although doesn't treat her with anymore humanity - suggesting that he is spending more time away.

    What about Fry dying of poison? Was it self inflicted? Is it connected to his collection of bezoars?


  • But it's true, isn't it? After you've wronged someone, there is at least a temptation to hate or despise them, because you don't want to confront that evil in yourself. When Calliope last knew Dream, he had not faced that about himself. He still hasn't: he hasn't forgiven Nada. 
  • I'm going to examine and comment on each of these four stories separately.

    I think it's significant that Madoc's only true creation (the others, in my opinion, being stolen via his rape of Calliope) is called The Cabaret of Dr. Caligari, which of course brings to mind The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari. This has led me to dig through the plot of the movie (which I, unfortunately, have not yet seen, though I intend to eventually), and I find the idea that Cesare, in the film, is able to seemingly pull the truth of the future from dreams to be particularly significant. Of course, that ability all turns out to be a trick, and furthermore, the entire thing is the delusion of a mental patient, all of which adds further significance to the title of Madoc's book.

    We don't see the full title of his first stolen work, the final word(s?) is obscured, though what we do see "...And My Love Gave Me" seems to cast an interesting light on how he may see his relationship with Calliope. He's raping her and treating her as an object from which he's stealing these stories, but he seems to think they're being given to him. Of course, I may be reading too much into the title, but there's a twisted irony to him calling himself a "feminist writer" as he's literally holding a woman hostage and raping her to serve his own career.

    The fact that his film is called ...And the Madness of Crowds, makes that original Caligari connection, feel even more significant, as does the imprisonment of Calliope, and Madoc's own eventual fate.

    I wish I'd seen the movie because I know there's something there to dig into and get more out of the reference, but I'm left frustrated by having no more to get out of it right now.

    I find Morpheus's empathy for Calliope's plight given his own imprisonment notable, and wonder what it says that he punished Madoc so righteously for his treatment of her while he still left Nada imprisoned in Hell back in vol. 1. Was it the softening of his own personality through his quest that allowed him to forgive and help Calliope? Was it that Calliope was also imprisoned by humans, while Nada received her punishment from Morpheus himself? I don't know. It's definitely something to keep in mind while following modern Morpheus's actions moving forward, though.
  • Also, as far as the "Rapunzel Syndrome" thing goes, it may be more than that, but remember, Rapunzel was imprisoned for selfish reasons, which mirrors Calliope's own situation. (This is true of others in the series, but I'm connecting it only to Calliope because it's only referenced in this story so far.)
  • I'm thinking about the value of stories and whether they can be true even though the things they say happened really didn't. Oberon remarked that the events of 'Mid-Summer Night's Dream' didn't actually occur, but Morpheus responds, 'Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot'

    Having come from (and perhaps back into - haven't really figured this out yet) a branch of conservative Christianity where it's important to the 'truth' of the religion that certain things actually happened, I wonder whether there are truths in Christianity (and by extension any other religion) that are true even if the underlying events/facts it claims to support those truths didn't actually happen.

    Extending that question to myths in general, all the great myths/creation stories/etc have important things to say about the human condition, life, suffering, etc. But we can only reduce all religions to basically being the same thing if we don't consider any particular religion the 'deepest' truth, with the best factual support. Or can we separate the truth of something from the facts used to support it?

    In some ways I'm ready to dismiss the validity of those underlying facts, but perhaps not the kind of logic that links those facts to the 'truths' claimed.

    Anyway - a discussion of religion is likely counterproductive. So I wonder in general - if a story illustrates deep truths about life, humanity, etc, by using made-up events that (may or may not) purport to be true and factual - does it matter that the storyteller is essentially lying to illustrate those truths? Or does the truth transcend the false facts used to support the telling? Morpheus and Puck both seemed to think so.
  • I'm inclined to think that a storyteller is not pretending to be recounting factual occurrences; or, if they are, it's still within the context of "this is a story." I think that's different than someone who is trying to function as not-a-storyteller saying that something factually happened. But that may also be a fairly modern Western division, too; is there such a thing as studying the history of the psychology of story telling and story reception? 
  • Great stuff being tossed around!

    When I first read Calliope, I just accepted M's decision not to accept her gratefulness after her rescue. Now I think that may have been a mistake on his part. If he had allowed her to come and go into his realm as she pleased, she might have freely given him some better ideas of what do with his future adventures. And he keeps going it alone. When does he ever ask for advice or help? He does ask Titania at one point in the play if he did the right thing by giving to Will the stories her requested, but she does not answer him. That seems to have been it and that is M's biggest flaw (my opinion).

    Rainie's story is so sad. She has this great gift and she just can't cope. Someone dropped the ball to get her into some JLA counseling. I do respect an individual's decision to end their own life if the physical pain is too much... but she is relatively healthy but unable to cope emotionally with having been made post human. One of the ways I was shown to deal with my own personal negativity was to do things for others. This led me on adventures I'd have never had by remaining in solitary. If she continued to serve others, who knows what being(s) she would have later met that could have shown her how wonderful and special she was?

    Beauty = Appearance * Personality   (where A & P are both numbers > 0)
    and as time goes on, Appearance approaches 1.
  • Is Rainie's gift really great? The ability to be anything...except yourself. It sounds more like a curse; Rainie certainly sees it as such. (And heck, she didn't even go into the tomb of her own volition, it was for military/company purposes.)

    In fact, this might be related to the idea of grasping for inspiration (like Madoc) or asking for it (Shakespeare.) Rainie didn't ask for the gift. She was SENT in, so that the US could have "an American super-woman. For Uncle Sam." (A whole other debate could be had about the cowardice of the men sending her in to take this amazing power, while waiting outside in safety.) In this case, Rainie wasn't looking for fame, power, or glory for herself, but the people sending her were, and she paid the price. But when she simply ASKS Ra to take the gift back, instead of making demands, she is granted what she really wants.
  • Addressing Jillybob's point from the Questions thread: does Shakespeare want greatness, or does he want to write well? Those are two very different things. "God's wounds! If only I could write like you...I would give anything to have your gifts. Or more than anything to give men dreams that would live on long after I am dead." He doesn't mention wanting to be great, or famous, or even to be personally remembered: just to have his "dreams" remembered. I think that's different from Madoc.
  • Fry dying of poison may well have been self-inflicted but most probably had something to do with his collection of bezoars. He tells Madoc that "It means counter-poison. Antidote...They can remedy poison...Edward IV survived the effects of a poisoned wound, due solely to a bezoar in his possession." Perhaps he took poison, believing he could survive it thanks to his bezoars.

    The same series of panels also mentions John Dee, Queen Elizabeth's "...spy and magician." I wondered if there would be any mention of him based on Dr. Destiny's real name being John Dee.

    Bezoars figure into an episode of "House" in which a trichinobezoar lodged in the patients GI tract is the cause of the problem. Were the writers reading Gaiman?
  • Trichinobezoars, and Rapunzel Syndrome, are real things, so I kind of doubt it. Bezoars, at least the belief in them, are a real thing, too; they show up in Harry Potter a few times, as well.
  • "Rapunzel syndrome," Rapunzel being locked away in a tower to serve another -- I like that connection very much.  Also bezoars are super gross.

    SOOOOO much more here than I thought.  I originally breezed through/dismissed the stories in Vol. III, since they seemed like fairly simple one-off stories apart from the main timeline.  Now I see how absolutely central they are!

    If anything, I'm starting to sink into the realization that Neil Gaiman so often writes about writers and writing.

    A thought brought up by my partner Patrick -- in many oral storytelling traditions ownership and transmission of a story is incredibly important, in fact sacred (in the culture descended from Nada's people, for example, or here where I live in Tlingit / Tsimshian / Haida territory).  Not only is the way a story is told crucial, often demanding word-for-word memorization, but permission to tell a story belongs only to a select few, and is seldom passed on to another.  In Tlingit tradition, short stories may be told by almost anyone, but an important story may be told only by the elders -- and anyone else who wants to tell the story must first pass the tests required, repeating a sometimes hours-long tale with near perfect rote memorization.  Permission is crucial.

    I see a number of these tales (going all the way back to Vol. I) as testing the bounds of the permissions and consent of the storytellers and the story subjects.

    The issue of consent came up for me a lot in this book.  Sexual consent, even.  We often get two similar situations (Shakespeare and Madoc, Element Girl and Hob) with crucial differences in consent and permissions, and we see them play out very very differently:

    - Element Girl is given incredible abilities and life eternal, but in a disturbingly rape-like scenario.  It destroys her.  I have the feeling that if she could accept her current state, she could in fact go out and mingle.  If only she didn't feel the need to wear her fake masks, if she could just accept and be her bizarre self -- I mean, I kept wondering why she didn't ask to meet that friend in another setting, where they could be candid about what her condition meant.  I'm sure she could have made some friends and earned some sympathy if she could have found the strength to befriend herself.  But she didn't want to or ask to be that superhuman alienated self, and she already had a full life of being a different self.  She can't go back to what she knew herself to be, so she lives in total despair, mostly forgotten.

    (Did anyone else notice how all the faces in her apartment seem to mirror both the McKean artwork and the domain of Despair?  Her living situation is a perfect illustration of what Despair does to a person.)  In the end, she is freed by asking permission, something that never was asked of her.

    - Richard Madoc takes inspiration itself captive, locks her away, and rapes her for his own literary success.  I also note that some folks are talking about how he does it for his own success -- I think he actually starts out of fear, fear that he will disappoint, that he can't follow up.  He's terrified, so he takes an extraordinary measure.  It's awful, but at least it's comprehensible.  But when he keeps her for the second work it gets as dark as it can get; his fear is gone and he accepts that he's a slave-owner. He seems to become an expert at a Fight Club-style dissociation, not seeing any irony in calling himself a feminist writer. 

    In some ways, I almost see this story as commentary on colonialism and on cultural appropriation, a metaphor for the privileged using the language and art forms of oppressed groups.  It reminds me of those rather disgusting films in which the white person comes to a foreign land to be a samurai / fight with the natives / learn an ancient martial art / make ramen, and winds up doing it better than all the people in that culture who have been practicing for years, and ultimately saves them or teaches them some important lesson.  The writer who steals stories in this particular Richard Madoc way is committing a kind of cultural crime.  He's telling a story that he has no permission to tell.  The stories themselves do not consent to his telling them.  In the end, his punishment is so so fitting.

    - The Cats - Along a similar line, I am interested in how this story reflects the struggle to "own" a cultural narrative.  It is possible, easy, almost inevitable to change history completely, so that someone else's history never happened.  For example, in some history textbooks about Alaska, the timeline begins with the discovery of Alaska by Russians -- which obliterates the way the story of the state might be told by the people who lived here thousands of years before that, making it as if it was never real, especially after it's taught for fifty years even to the very people who were here first.  The winners write history -- and perhaps those who write history win, like the humans did with their collective dream.  I remember that after reading certain nonfiction history books, opening my eyes a little wider to the many many ways history (and any story) can be written, I felt much the way the little kitten feels. It's funny, that spinning, ungrounded feeling when you wake up to the possibility that the world is very, very different than you always imagined, that there is not one story of how the world was, but thousands.  (These days, because the internet has fractured that formerly consolidated cultural power, I feel like we see fragments of every possible story at once -- especially on Twiter, where I follow over 10,000 people -- and it's overwhelming to see how different they all are.)  Anyway, the ones telling the story have a terrible power.  Writers are dangerous.

    - William Shakespeare I see as a great foil to Madoc, because instead of wanting the approval of others, he wanted to tell the stories that made men dream.  His inspiration comes from a very different place.  It is a somewhat dark place -- he "strikes a deal with the devil" -- but at the same time it's consensual all around.  He wants it, he is offered what he wanted, he accepts, and he pays the price.  His distance from his family is tragic, but it also doesn't seem to trouble him as much as it troubles them -- and he's hardly the first artist to be a disappointing family man.  I also love his gift when compared with Madoc's punishment -- they're not that dissimilar, but one is a curse to drive Madoc mad, while Will receives literary immortality.  There's a fine line between the two gifts; do not piss off the Prince of Stories.

    - Hob Gadling - I just want to mention him as a foil for Element Girl.  Both have been gifted with eternal life and good health, but the key difference is consent.  Element Girl never agreed to be what she is, Hob (like Will) struck a bargain with the devil willingly, and he continues to want to live, even at his lowest.  Looking at all the stories of captivity and freedom above, I think it's very very interesting that he is involved in slavery, but he stops, and later repents.

    Morpheus himself now knows more about enslavement, freedom, consent, and permission after his experience with Burgess.  I didn't know how to read the stories in Vol. III, really, until I saw this common thread connecting them.

    Good grief.  Now I've written far too much and I should be working, so break time!  Gold stars for anyone who reads this whole thing.
  • Another thing that strikes me about Rainie's story: Death won't consent to dominate Rainie, even when Rainie wants it. "you've come to make it all stop?" But Death won't take Rainie's life that way: "Your life is your own, Rainie. So is your death."  It can't just be any death for Rainie: it has to be her own. I think Death gives her back her agency. 

    Which is very, VERY odd, since death is probably the biggest thing that we have no (or little) agency over. Barring suicide, death takes us when it wants to. So it seems bizarre that Death in the Sandman universe is the one to give agency to both Rainie and Hob. 
  • One important point about Shakespeare that isn't reflected in Sandman (as far as I've seen):

    Many of the stories he turned into plays existed before he used them.

    Particularly some of his more famous ones: Romeo and Juliet existed as a poem, as did Othello, his various histories obviously took their perspective from whomever was in power at the time, etc.

    This adds to the contrasting portrayal between Madoc and himself.

    Which brings me to the "true even if it didn't happen" conundrum.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm a bit of an actor. Amateur, and only occasionally as there aren't so many _plays_ I have the opportunity to audition for in my area, but an actor regardless.

    The #1 thing to acting: truth.

    This may sound contradictory given that acting is, by its very definition, playing someone that you're not, and in a situation you aren't really experiencing, but truth it is.

    You have to make it appear to the audience as though you are legitimately feeling and reacting to the events around you the way you've rehearsed it. They go in knowing it's been written and rehearsed, but willing suspension of disbelief takes over as long as you play it true.

    Even if it's not how you personally would react, you have to find that gem of recognition within you and legitimately feel that the reaction is yours, at least for that moment. You never lose sight of the fact that it's all fiction, but in that moment, it is true.

    The reason A Midsummer Night's Dream rang true to the fair folk, despite the fact that they knew the events hadn't happened, was that Shakespeare understood the human mind and emotional reactions. This also reflects in most of the rest of his canon.

    I've been told in both literary and psychology classes that because of that deep understanding, Shakespeare is unofficially known as "the first psychologist."

    I know I'm talking around the specifics of what can make fiction "true" but it's different for everyone who experiences stories or other art.

    I guess that what it ultimately boils down to is: does [story] ring true, emotionally? Do the characters' actions feel grounded in reality, no matter what sort of fantastic events may or may not be going on around them? Does [song] feel like it comes from a legitimate emotional place? Etc.

    It's very subjective, and can also vary from performance/production to performance/production, but there's my take on it.
  • @Joi_the_Artist Yeah, I like that subtlety. Death isn't there to make it all stop, but she can help to let it all stop.

    Given the themes of agency/servitude, dominance/oppression, control/freedom, etc. in this volume, it's really telling of Death's character that she refuses to control Rainie's fate after she was forced by the CIA to be mutilated and re-shaped by Ra, and then dumped by them when she was understandably a bit broken by the experience.
  • Facade - Sometimes you put one up, sometime you tear one down.

    When Urania starts to dream, she says "And this dream?" Is is because she recognizes it, or is it out of anticipation, wondering which kind it will be.

    "This didn't happen. It was just the stone. It didn't happen like this". In the waking world, she had touched the orb and was instantly changed.  Is this a repressed memory that she's is not dealing with, or just the personification of her feeling about it?

    "I failed. I didn't stop it happening.....I never asked for it." Those sentences are ending with periods, but in my mind, they are screaming.

    I was thinking of her as old, because her character is from the 60's, but "None of the last five years ever happened."  This isn't the now classic 'Superhero dealing with retirement' that I first thought it was, this is a tale of trauma not being dealt with.




  • My thinking is similar to totz_the_plaid's when it comes to the "truth" of a story or a performance. It means to me, "I recognize that feeling," or "I recognize that person." Emotions and personality types are universal; it's just the packaging that's different. So that's what I took from, "This never happened, but it's true." I took it to mean, "This *rings* true. The emotion is authentic. I know this feeling. I know people like this."

    I must say, I didn't enjoy this volume as much as the first two. First of all, as I mentioned in the questions thread, I had a really negative reaction to the idea of stealing, purchasing, or trading for inspiration. It really upset me. I hated the idea of imprisoning a muse, and I hated the idea that Shakespeare's work wasn't his. (Although obviously I knew that a lot of his stories weren't originally his to begin with. This just seemed like another level.) To me, as both a writer and consumer of stories, there's a contract between the storyteller and the audience, and it boils down to, "I am giving you this thing that came from me. It might not be ABOUT me or inspired by anything that happened to me, but it came from within me, and I want to engage you with it." Again, it's sort of this idea of truth, in the context of fiction -- I take a feeling or a journey and make you feel it, make you experience, and that's the truth I created and gave to you. And when the inspiration is stolen, or bought, or whatever, it makes that truth a lie. And it violates that contract.

    The other reason I didn't enjoy this volume as much was that it was pretty rapey, and we'd already had doses of violence against women in the first two volumes, and I just got kind of maxed out with this one. To be fair, there's been violence against men as well, and I guess this is more or less a horror comic, so violence is to be expected. But I really did just get raped out, so to speak.

    I did enjoy the story of the cats. I love the story and thought it had some of the most striking artwork in the whole series thus far. And as a cat person, I found a lot of little nuances in it that I thought could only have come from a cat lover. (I also related, in brief, the story to my cat who tends to come and yell at me for attention while I'm reading in bed. She seemed pretty interested, but I don't think I gave her any ideas, since we're all still here. But I did ask her and my other cat to keep me on as a groomer, if the change ever comes, rather than eating me. You gotta cover your bases.)

    The Element Girl storyline was sad but very intriguing, and it made me want to read her earlier canon to see how she got to this point. Which is what a good comics crossover does; I also want to read Constantine now, thanks to his appearance in Volume 1. (Something the movie Constantine did *not* make me want to do.) I really wanted to know more about how she became so isolated and desperate. We're pretty used to comic narratives where the hero has conflicts and doubts but embraces his destiny. Or, at least I am. I wanted more from Rainie's story, because I wanted to understand WHY she couldn't overcome her curse, and WHY it was such a tragic affliction, when, in the world of comic heroes, we've seen heroes overcome just about any isolating or demoralizing setback.

    Actually, that's kind of funny, because I think the reality is that any normal person would be completely emotionally broken by becoming what Rainie's become, but I'm so used to seeing stories of heroes who just throw on a mask or gloves or special suit and go out and save the world that I see what a mess Rainie is, and part of me just wants to say, "Get it together, girl!" Which is completely unreasonable. I just now realized that.

    Anyway, I reread the volume a couple of times, and I'm glad I did, because I had a negative visceral response to a lot of elements on the first reading, and when I reread, I was able to enjoy a lot more.
  • Yeah, I @jillybob, I actually read vol. IV already and was sort of breathing a sigh of relief, "Ah, no rape in this one." The horror element of the novels is unreal and terrifying, but the sexual violence in the series is a little too realistic and terrifying.  Weird how a series set so much in fantasy seems to tackle the worst of real-world problems more directly than so many series actually set in the real world.
  • Ha -- I read ahead to Vol IV, too, and had the same reaction!
  • I have to say, with all the talk about where stories come from, where inspiration comes from, who the stories belong to...I had a few thoughts. 

    First of all, a thought about inspiration. I got the feeling regarding the stories that involved people trading or stealing things for inspiration (both Shakespeare and Madoc) - that what they were really getting was just that, inspiration, not the actual stories. As horrible as Madoc is (and what he does), I don't think the stories he gets out of it are Calliope's stories. I feel like what he has stolen (and what Shakespeare bargained with Dream to get) are not the actual stories, but rather a gift for TELLING those stories. The muses from Greek mythology didn't make up the stories, or the artwork or the songs, or whatever else they inspired. They were just there to help mortals express the pieces of themselves that got stuck. The stories that Madoc is telling are his, but his talent well was running dry (and thus he decided to do horrible things to get it flowing again). Shakespeare wanted to create stories that would be remembered forever, and even though they weren't always his (exactly), he knew he had a specific idea about how to tell them - he just needed a little extra help. I don't think those stories came from Dream, just the drive and talent to tell them in a way that would be remembered. 

    So, as to why they would make those deals, why anyone would want to tell a story that isn't theirs - I don't think anyone did. I imagine it would be like hiring a ghost writer. You have ideas, you have stories to tell and a plot and characters, you just aren't sure how to piece everything together coherently - and the ghost writer comes along and helps you make it into something whole, and your name still gets attached. Is it really not your story, if someone else helped you tell it? Or is it just not your talent that put the finished product together? I tend to think it's the latter. Certainly not condoning doing terrible things for fame and glory, but I think it's an important lesson about the price of art....and how maybe, sometimes, the price is too high. 

    Shakespeare may have neglected his family, but it seems like he was the sort of personality to get wrapped up in his art/work way BEFORE Dream came along. He chose to pay that price very early on, and didn't seem particularly bothered by it. Madoc, on the other hand, did terrible things out of desperation and perverted the creative process, for an end product that may have been his best work, but will likely not stand the test of time. It seems he was willing to sacrifice parts of his humanity for art, and one has to wonder if he thinks it was worth it, in the end. 

    I can't help but make some connections to modern day artists/famous people of all kinds - notably, the ones that we hear about doing truly awful things in their personal lives. Does it stop us from reading their books, appreciating their music, going to see their movies? Do we really feel more than a twinge of guilt if the person behind the art is that terrible? How easy is it to separate the artist from their work? How important is art for art's sake? 

    (These are all honest questions I've had rolling around in my head from a good long while now, not even just about Sandman, but they certainly seem applicable)
  • Following off Totz and jillybob - Agreed! There's so much truth in stories - sometimes, it's easier to get at essential truths through fiction than through a strict fidelity to the facts. I know my family/friends and I share stories about each other that we all tell in identical fashion - though the truth of any single memory is a little less polished and the punchline/moral at the time of the event less exactly right than it becomes in the telling. The version of the story that we share stands in for and replaces the memory of the history we lived through; the story says something about who we are in a way that the actual event only hinted at.

    And I'm seconding your thoughts on inspiration, AK_Becky! There's a difference between inspiration or origination of ideas and the final act of authorship. Shakespeare in the real world was working off/responding to existing texts, as Totz_the_Plaid points out; in The Sandman's world, he is also "the willing vehicle for the great stories" but it is still his words that "will echo down through time." Whatever the exact nature of Morpheus's gift, the plays and sonnets are still Shakespeare's work. Where ever his ideas come from, he's still the author. (And now I'm thinking about Douglas Adams, who used to answer the fan-favorite question 'where do you get your ideas?' with 'Indianapolis.')

    Even reading the above discussions, I still don't know what to make of the Madoc and Calliope storyline - other than to say that I probably wouldn't have kept reading past the rape scene if I didn't have these weekend discussions to look forward to. There are some echoes of Morpheus's captivity in Calliope's story - but despite being powerless and having his tools stolen, there aren't hints that anyone was able to harm him the way Calliope was. The same construct that trapped him protected him - it didn't seem like anyone was willing to get too close and for good reason. Calliope is not presented with an opportunity to rescue herself, having instead to rely upon a (formerly angry) ex to rescue her. Being a muse instead of an agent/creator is a narrow box at the best of times. This storyline does not present the best of times.
  • @daniel, something you said about muses has stuck in my head -- normally they visit someone only once, a chance encounter.  Erasmus Fry and then Madoc don't find that is enough, they cannot just accept one flash of inspiration, they want to OWN it and access it forever.

    From an artist's standpoint, I know that feeling of sometimes having lightning strike, sometimes having an encounter with art that feels like meeting a higher power and simply being a conduit for it.  I've had that experience maybe 2-3 times in my life, and it's produced my best work (though I hardly even feel like it's mine, it felt like such an outside experience).  I think a lot of artists are familiar with this experience.

    But the terrifying part of being an artist is getting down to the daily work of creating things even when you DON'T have that encounter.  That's the difficult and daunting work of creating.  It's a flash of miraculous insight sometimes, but 99% of the time it's a daily discipline and a wrestling match of a very mundane sort, putting one word or one note or one brushstroke upon another.

    Madoc and Fry, I think, were not content to do that work, or maybe they weren't capable of it.  They refused the work of being an artist and instead tried to harness the source.  It's the height of laziness and covetousness and ego.  And somehow to try to repeat that experience over and over, instead of going and making your own, seems like the height of gaucheness.  It reminds me a little of the "hit factories" in which a lot of pop music is written, throwing money at creating Top 40 hits with no care at all for whether the results have artistic integrity.  I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say here, but I see why Gaiman wrote this part of the story -- it's an alternative vision of how not to be an artist.

    My parents are artists, and growing up they particularly impressed a strange interpretation of the 10th Biblical commandment on me ("thou shalt not covet").  In my family, a little nucleus of five artists, we were taught not to covet someone else's art, someone else's gift, someone else's inspiration.  That's what it meant to us.  Jealousy and theft in art were (in my family) the worst of spiritual crimes.  Pursue your own work, devote yourself to the discipline of it, and do not try to take or even emulate what you know is not yours to create.

    This is rather abstract, but there's something important in it that I'm trying to work out. Somehow Gaiman with Calliope has illustrated one of the Seven Deadly Sins of the Artist in my mind.  I'll keep working on it internally.

    Interestingly, I think Madoc and the waitress Bette back in the Diner have more in common than anyone suspects.
  • To follow My comment's from volume 1,it isn't just Morpheus that gets The Gatsby treatment, it's all of the Endless. Having said that, it makes sense with the endless. It makes sense that we only know a little bit about them - until they choose to reveal themselves Further. We're not supposed to, as mortals, to know them really. We're only supposed to know their influence on the world.
  • As far as the cat shorts go, I just read it a few minutes ago so my thoughts aren't totally processed yet, but what stood out to me this time is the fact that the one cat felt like They deserve for the world to be like it used to be.

    Having said that, it was a terrible place for humans to begin with, which is the very reason why the humans dreamed up the current world. Even if the cats where able to dream up the old world, what's the humans to stop Dreaming things back to the now?

    It makes me wonder if maybe the cats should dream up a world that is equally satisfying for humans and cats.
  • Ok, I think I can start writing about this again (the last post really wiped me out. it was pretty painful to write.

    There was a question of what Urania Blackwell was like, before this comic. She only had 7 comic appearances before Sandman. It's had to say right now if the current backstory is from those issues, or from the "Wednesday Comics" series that Gaiman wrote. The issues are really hard to find, but you can find some details here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Element_Girl#Element_Girl

    (there's more I could say here, but I think that might be a better conversation for a Metamorpho book club)

    Death says "No, you're making sense. You people always hold onto old identities, old faces, long after they've served their purpose. But you've got to learn to throw things away eventually.
     
    There were photos of Urania everywhere in here place. She was trying to hold on to an old life, an old idea, instead of moving on. Death was encouraging her to let go of the old, but she decides to let go of the current, to push back to the past.

    Holding on to the old....

    The play is Dream's gift to humanity, and to the Fae. So that they may not be forgotten, and they we may hang onto them now that they are gone.

    The cat seek a way to return to the old, to hold on the loss, to try to regain it. 

    and now back to the first story.... 

    The idea of a muse itself is very much clinging to the past. Madoc is clinging to the idea of his first book. All Fry really wants at this point is his first book republished. Calliope even holds on to her old hatred, for a moment. "I would not accept his help." And then later, she attempts to hold onto her even older feeling for Morpheus, when she asks about coming to visit.

    Fry also holds on to other old ideas, like talismans and warding. And capturing a muse. This idea was very odd to me, muses were always a patron, or a source of devotion to. To capture a muse would be to try to hold a snowflake, to freeze fire, to contain a breeze. I can't imagine you'd get anything out of that (more on that later).
  • That...that is freaking brilliant, man. That's the only time I think I've heard a really persuasive reason why "Dream of 1000 Cats" is included.
  • On the ideas of inspiration and ownership and muses.

    Madoc and Fry both talked about suffering from writer's block, and how Calliope was the answer to this. I think they were just massively fooling themselves. To paraphrase Jeff Tweedy, "You're working even when you don't think you're working.....writer's block is just the Ego getting in the way"  (The Nerdist, Feb 17,2012)

    Madoc had been writing that book for years, he just needed the magic feather, something to tell him to forget about worrying about living up to the last book, about what the editor or publisher would say, about how the public would react, and just write.

    And what happens? He forgets about the deadlines, the blank pages, and starting thinking about the crime he committed. And suddenly, he's writing.

    I would suggest that Morpheus and Shakespeare share the same delusions about their contract. Morpheus already refers to this not being their first meeting (in Book II), so something about him caught his attention, He doesn't appear to all dreamers. We only have Hob's and Will's own word to the quality of his writing, and I don't trust Hob's judgement, and Will's? I trust an artist even less. I actually don't have a problem with "Bad, revolting stars" Sure, he was writing about LA 400 years too early, but you can't really fault him for that. 
      
      Again, it's his ego that's getting in the way. Wanting approval, it pushes to focus on being like others. Once he has a patron, someone to tell him to not worry about the worth of his work, because I want something from 'You'. A Play at the start of your career and one at the end. No matter what your ego says about your current work, you have a second voice - "Either this isn't the end of your career, so just move on to the next project, or this far better than you think, for you were promised that your last work would be timeless." Oh, to be able to fall for that same trick.


  •   This leads me to the ownership of ideas. Are the plays Shakespeare's? What would make them Dream's? Because he contracted for the play? I'm looking at a some of the art I have hanging up. One of them has very detailed hand-cut matte work. Art in it's own right, but certainly something that I would never hang up on it's own without a picture to frame it. Does that take something away from the ownership of the main art itself? Does the composite piece change the way the original painting was made? Does it change the purity of the process? Does it make a difference if there was a connection between the two artists?

    The other one has a very simple matte, but the artist continued the painting out of the frame. If I commissioned the additional work, and told her what to draw, does that make the art different that if she said "Thank you for everything, let me add something additional, because you like it so much." And then proceeded to draw her own ideas.

    Does art for payment have a different place than art for joy? 

    What if I told you that both of those happened at the same time? Does "Please draw whatever you want to, whatever you think is best," make drawing your own ideas any different? I don't think so.

    So where would you draw the line?

    You should write for TV
    You should write for ABC/Marvel
    You should write for Joss Whedon
    You should write for Agents of SHIELD
    You should write the next script
    You should write a script about a cyborg.
    You should write a scene where the cyborg blows up a building and then saves a puppy, because that will be important 9 seasons from now.

    "You should write...." Even assigned art is still art, and if you didn't create it, then who did? Sure there may have been influences around you, but it's still your work. Even if alterations are made, it's still your art.

    I could see control of the characters being used as an argument. To quote Gaiman "(Just a brief apology -- I'm afraid Erasmus talks an awful lot, and makes sure he take the longest possible route through and sentence. I try to keep him short-winded, but he does rather tend to overload any panels he's in with words. Oh well --At least this is his last page on stage, as it were" And then goes on about the layout challenges this creates.

     Many of my favorite authors talk about not having full control of characters, the way they tend to spoil outlines, they way they change plans - no - let me be the one to do that. It will be a much better story.

    Is that any different than a collaborative work?

    Or how an editor made a suggestion that vastly improved a work? Karen Burger rejected the original book ideas that Gaiman had for his new project. The artists had a huge impact on the story, shaping many of the ideas. In fact, Gaiman said that he likes to write the story based on the talents of the artist assigned to the book. Does that make their art less for it?



  • Regarding the idea that a story need not actually have happened to be true...

    My wife and I had the pleasure of hearing Neil Gaiman speak in San Jose today. One of the things he said that sticks with me (though I probably can't quote it accurately) was his explanation of why he is so fascinated with Story. He marveled at how stories can outlast even the cultures that create them. People die, buildings only last a few hundred years, cities and societies come and go, but stories persist. They morph over time, but they persist.

    I look at the events around us and I see this playing out all the time. People see the Facebook movie and believe it's true, even though Sorkin openly admits he couldn't care less about accuracy. The facts are clear, but what people will remember is the popularized story. And when everyone who remembers the facts have long since died, the story is all that will remain.

    Then we look back at the stories we revere, for which no one alive (or at least no one outside academia) remembers the actual facts, and we see it again from the other side. Was that ancient demigod/hero/ruler really that heroic? Or was he just another asshole who happened to have better PR than his peers? On December 25th, how many people realize it's Mithras's birthday that they're celebrating, not the other guy?

    The truly chilling apsect, though, is when you see people openly embracing this idea for nefarious purposes. Who cares what's true? As long as we repeat our lies loudly and repeatedly, enough people will believe them that they will become true. Call it the Fox News syndrome, if you will.

    What I would like to see in the world is more positive exploitation of the phenomena. Stories based on actual truth, but spun in a manner that will make them reverberate in the hearts of mankind, so that they echo through the ages, long after the facts themselves have faded. Stories with morals, with undying archetypes to emulate and avoid.

    Gaiman makes these. As do many others. But not nearly as many as I would like to see. And not just those in entertainment. I want to see this kind of inspiration in politics, business, education, and every other aspect of humanity. I know so many people who are working hard to get to this point. I can't wait to see what they create over the coming decades!
  • @daniel You would have loved Gaiman's talk today. Someone asked him if he remembers his dreams. He talked about how, earlier on, he used to have nightmares all the time. But once he started writing Sandman, he kept a notebook by his bed and would write down all the crazy shit that was freaking him out in his dreams, to use it as story fodder. (The visuals and emotions, not the logic, he clarifies.)  Eventually, the nightmares stopped. He figured whomever was in charge of nightmares was just frustrated. "I don't understand. I keep giving him these terrifying nightmares, but he just wakes up and writes them all down, giggling all the while."

    Given that, and you speculation above, one might ask if Sandman was actually Gaiman's story, or the story of his nightmares. I'd argue that they are his, and likewise that Shakespeare's are his. No matter how rich the source dream may be, it is only the ideas, visuals, and emotions that hit the writer that they can claim credit for. What the writer chooses to do with them from there is all about them.

    No matter how detailed the writing instructions you give, a thousand students will still come up with a thousand variations on the assignment. Even when writing code, which is typically much more straight-forward than the English language, you still see a wide variety of approaches to even the simplest tasks.

    The only difference I see between art for pay and art for art's sake is the intended audience. If you're just doing it for yourself, and it makes you happy, it's a success, if a limited-scope one. If you're making art to please a larger audience (or perpetuate a Story for a greater purpose), there are a lot more variables to take into account. It's more complex, it's more prone to turning into crap, and it's a million times more effective when it does work.

    It's not the involvement of money that's the key, but the intention of what the art should become that counts.
  • Regarding Raine's story...

    The key, for me, is Death's assertion that "you people always hold onto old identities, old faces and masks, long after they've served their purpose." I know this is certainly true for me. Although I try to throw things away when I can.

    While I never attempted suicide myself, I did reach a point once where I *wished* more than anything in the world for an end to it all. I yearned for it. I begged for it. And I got nothing. In the hollowness that followed, I struggled for a way to cope.

    Eventually, I figured that if I wasn't using my life, I should at least let someone else get some use out of it. I studied those around me, tried to understand how they interacted with one another, and where I could step in to nudge them back onto a path they were about to stray from, or prevent them from starting a fire they wouldn't be able to control. It's amazing how much you can positively impact other people's lives once you have given up on any hope or desire for personal happiness.

    In order to get close enough to people to herd them back onto their paths, I created an increasingly plausible series of masks for myself. For the next decade or so, I was still essentially hollow inside, but I showed the world what I thought it needed to see to get it where I thought it needed to go. Like an open wound under a plaster cast, most of the things that were broken inside of me slowly stated to heal, without me realizing it. And after a decade and change of wearing my Shepard's Mask (if you will), I was finally brave enough to take it off and take a long, deep look in the mirror.

    Since then, I try to kill myself as often as I can. Not in the physical sense, of course. But every few years, when that undefinable thing inside me starts to ache and throb for a Really Important Reason That I Just Can't Identify (what David Wilcox would call Metaphorical Reasons), I fill up my gas take, get the hell out of town for a few days, and go on a vision quest. I take off as many of my masks as I can, shatter them to pieces, throw out the shards I don't need, and rebuild new ones from the scraps.

    Having this metaphorical death/rebirth cycle firmly entrenched in my own personal mythology helps me get through some of the toughest times. Yes, it's aweful. No, I can't see an end to it. No, I probably can't survive it. But I don't really need to. I just need to learn something from it, so I know which bits to toss out and which bits to keep when I go through my next rebirth. I may not be strong enough. But the next Me will be a little bit stronger. And he'll build a slightly stronger one to replace him. And eventually we'll figure this shit out.

    And isn't that how humanity evolves, really? We're not going to fix all the important issues in our lifetime. Most generations don't even get fix one. But we make tiny little improvements here and there, and we try to pass on the lessons we learn to the next generation. We teach them. We warn them. We inspire them. We tell them stories that they can pass on to the generations after them, embellishing them with what they have learned.

    When societies devolve is when they refuse to submit to the death/rebirth cycle. Fundamentalism and the unshaking idea that What Was Must Always Be stops the growth. It lets the wounds fester instead of heal. It infects the world with frustration and anger instead of inspiring with hope and wonder.

    The world needs fewer shepherds and a lot more bards!
  • @marian Thanks again for starting this book club. Send me your bill for group therapy and I'll send the check ASAP. :-)
  • What this is leading me to is to highlight the difference between ownership of art vs, well, there's not a good word for it right now, so lets call it "work".

     In the mythology I've studied, I never heard of anything like the capture ritual that was described in "Calliope" , although there are tales of gaining power over one related to seeing them bathing. So as one of this time is apt to do, I did an internet search for "Capture the Muse"

    I was offended by the search results that came back. Two different University art programs, A web design house, Many assorted blog posts. There was even a reference to Mozart saying that he "Captured the Muse" in his sleep.  Bizarrely, the only source I found for anything like this quote, was one talking about how he didn't know where his ideas came from, then just hit him. To add to the weirdness, that quote was from a letter that apparently is now considered a forgery.

      So what is with the modern obsession of "Capture", oppose to "Receive"? Look around you - The reason for this page, existing here, in this form, is a product of this time. And that time is about the ownership of ideas.

    Facebook, Google, YouTube, and many others, from the other big players, to small independent services, are adopting the idea of "You can use our service for this, and it's your stuff, mostly, but it's ours too." And there are some small technical reasons why this distinction is important, but those long gave way to ideas as a trade-able commodity.  

     This is different that say, the art house system, where the people entering the contract understand that the Art might be theirs, but the "Work" doesn't belong to them. We are now in a time were the simple idea of having a bouncing toolbar, or having a single button to click - someone owns those ideas now. And so many services ask to have part of the ownership of your ideas, just for the use of the service. They have rights to your book, because you used their photocopiers to print it.

    And so the desire to "capture the muse" comes from not the idea to hold on to inspiration, to trap it, but to keep it ours, and not let someone else control it. Perhaps, in the smallest way, this added to the sensitivity of the story. (Which is like going up to someone attacked by a bear, and adding a paper cut, but the question really wanted me to ask it) Constantly surrounded by questions of copyright, we have to ask on a daily basis, what do we keep and what do we let go.

    Erasmus Fry talks about how it's been 50 years since he captured Calliope, <ed. 87-27=50?> This happens to match up with copyright law for the UK, at the time this was published. If you take Fry's abduction of Calliope as the death of his humanity, his death, then that puts his book in public domain. He is giving his story, his ideas to Madoc, to make his own story out of them. Leaving with a parting wish - could you get the original work printed as well? There no money in it for you or me, but maybe I can be remembered.

    <Ok, so it was only when I was reviewing it that I saw I made a mistake on the math. I could have just suggested that it was past the time, and that he spent 10 years looking for the right person to come along. In the end, I figured to keep it that way, as it fits with the theme of truth doesn't mean it's factual.>
       
  • @rayhill Mentioning the Facebook movie reminded me of another popular movie right now that shaping a lot of stories and thoughts right now, "Captain Phillips"

    The last name of the surviving pirate? Muse 
  • @rayhill "It's amazing how much you can positively impact other people's lives once you have given up on any hope or desire for personal happiness."

    That reminds me of what Tarol Hunt said once. (paraphrasing) "Paladins become Paladins so that others don't have to."

    I would also add two things to think about - There must have been something for all those masks to hang on.
    When you are in a first-person game, it looks like there is nothing there because you are incapable of seeing yourself.

    If anyone is interested, Russian folklore often explores the ideas of layers, of things inside things inside things. And they are different enough from the "Mothergoose/Grimm" family of stories to just be a fun read as well.

  • @Daniel, it wasn't Hob who commented on the quality of Shakespeare's writing, it was Christopher Marlowe.

    I also agree that this volume was particularly rapey, both literally and symbolically, but I think that's just a symptom of its themes of agency/servitude, dominance/oppression, control/freedom, etc.

    Madoc seeks to control inspiration. The cats discover that the world was once theirs, but control was wrested from them. Urania feels as though she's lost control of her own life.

    Shakespeare, from that perspective, looks to be the odd one out, but I don't think that's the case. It's not so explicit in that issue, but Shakespeare has found the balance between freedom and control.

    He's bound to follow the terms of his arrangement with Morpheus and to write to the whims of the royals, but he's also free to travel, mostly in control of his own life, arguably the head of his troupe, and mostly free to write what he feels.

    He fits because he stands in contrast to the rest of the main players.
    Madoc feels oppressed by his contract and writer's block, so in turn he oppresses and violates Calliope, which leads to his ultimate downfall.
    The cats abused their control of the world, and were thus overthrown by humanity. Their own hubris and individualistic personalities are the main thing preventing them from regaining that control.
    Rainie was press-ganged into touching the eye of Ra by the C.I.A. and until the end, she never took agency over her own life, falling in direct contrast to Madoc and the cats.

    Shakespeare, on the other hand, sought no more than to have access to the abilities he coveted, and used them only to find his own freedom in life.

    And as far as how he gained those abilities, dreams may be the heart of imagination. Getting lost in possibility, and potential. I don't think Shakespeare was given his stories by Dream, but rather Morpheus saw the potential in Will Shaxbred and unlocked it for him.

    As we saw in vol. 2, Shakespeare seeks to spread dreams and imagination to people. Even as Morpheus enters the inn, Will is referring to the theme of Marlowe's Doctor Faustus as, "for one's art and for one's dreams one may consort with the darkest pow'rs."

    This usage of "dream" is significant because it captures more than what we may have been taking for granted. Dreaming is not just what happens as you sleep, but rather, dreams are whatever you can picture in your mind's eye.

    Morpheus isn't giving Shakespeare full stories like how Madoc steals stories from Calliope, but rather opening his mind's eye to be better able to look at existence and how it connects.

    I think it's interesting that Gaiman had them discussing "Faustus" as Morpheus entered. Not just because of the year it was published, not because of how it echoes Hob and Shakespeare's bargains, but rather because it was an older story already, just rewritten by Marlowe. The same is true for much of Shakespeare's work, even, in the DC universe at least, A Midsummer Night's Dream. As Titania remarks to Morpheus during the production, "In the old tale there was a love potion, that left the goddess rutting with an ass..." Which, of course happens in Shakespeare's play as well, as I suspect we all knew.

    So, there's a theme there of taking older stories and re-telling them, whether the stories were known to man or not.

    That brings me to a loose idea I had when I was younger, and has come back to me as we've examined these books:

    All stories exist already, they just choose who communicates them to the world. Some push their way through you in a flash, others require more digging, but they exist in the collective unconscious anyway.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That would be all for this rambling comment, but I just remembered that @Joi_the_Artist said that A Dream of a Thousand Cats was the first glimpse we see of a non-humanoid dream. I disagree. I think that Morpheus's appearance as "Lord Z'Oril" to Martian Manhunter fits, as he appears there to be a disembodied head surrounded by fire (which is deadly to Martians, something that struck my curiosity from the beginning, but I somehow forgot to bring up for discussion).


  • Joi,
    I saw 2 things differently than you did. I think we are both right. But it gets complicated...

    Raine's dream showed her as more volunteering. She was told upfront that there was a chance she could be made super human. And she crawled toward it. She could have declined. She just did not understand the consequences of what she signed up for and that it was way more than she expected. As a volunteer for the government though, she should have. 

    Dream's older sister Death does not decide directly who dies. It seems to me more like she is the Office Manager / Receptionist. In the story of granting Hob's immortality, it seems more like she is just postponing his collection as a favor to Dream. In some of the spin off stories (after Sandman) she has some discretion in how she exercises her office. Death tells Raine that it's Raine's choice for what happens to her. Death also offers some great advice but Raine's head appears wedged in what advice she takes. Some of Death's collections are crummy as evidenced by why she was in Raine's apartment building. I read all this as Mr Gaiman's excellent treatment of "destiny versus free will" (where (spoiler into Vol IV and beyond!) destiny is the choices some higher power is writing in Destiny's book that the character Destiny appears to have no choice over at all). Some of this gets explored in further detail in the spin off series "Lucifer" (which went to 90 issues) but mostly from Lucifer's point of view as he claims free will but is still trapped in a larger plan.

    It is also possible we are both correct as these scenes have multiple valid interpretations.
  • Keeping just to Calliope for the moment, two things struck me as I was reading everyone else's comments:

    Joi - there's a second mention of Orpheus when Madoc is trying to remember Morpheus' name (I also love Morpheus' expression on that page. Calliope may have forgiven Madoc, but I don't think Morpheus did.) 

    To Fry's death by poison, that is presented as suicide, reminded me of Syke's death in Preludes and Nocturnes. Syke had the amulet that protected him from all harm, and Burgess immediately killed him when it was taken from him. Fry had a bezoar, which provides protection from poison, but still dies. Why commit suicide, especially with poison?
  • I loved the glimpse behind the scenes we get in this Volume with the inclusion (in my edition, at least) of the Calliope script that Gaiman sent to Kelley Jones. It's interesting to see the points where the artwork differs from what Gaiman describes to what ended up in the final strip. It interesting to get some notes on references used in the story. It's also interesting to see that Madoc's study is based on a photo of Gaiman's workspace that Jones drew '...embarrassingly accurately...". :-)

    All the stories, to me, were about muses in different ways:

    Calliope is a muse '...lawfully bound' to Fry, and we must assume it is the case that such binding can be passed to another (or she could at least leave Madoc once Fry had died). We also learn that she was Homer's muse. Did Homer bind her, or was she his muse willingly? Should I be throwing out my copy of Illiad in disgust?

    In The Dream of a Thousand Cats, the Cat Dream Lord is the muse, giving a story to the cat, giving Reason to the trauma of losing her kittens, as people create stories to fight trauma. The cat retells the story inspired by her dream, and a regains what she feels is a purpose in life.

    In A Midsummer Night's Dream, Dream is the a muse, inspiring Shakespeare to write the stories, though whether it's just inspiration or more guided is unclear as Shakespeare says 'I wrote it as you told me Lord...'. Of course, I'm sure we all have Dream as our muse from time to time. I often wake with an idea or a solution to a problem. It's why people keep notepads by their beds. Do we all unconsciously make contracts with Dream when this happens? Is someone going to turn up one day and say, "You know all those ideas you had in your dreams? There was a price..."? :-/

    In Facade, Urania (which is actually the name of another of the Greek muses) is searching for an end to her story. In a sense she has 'writers block', because nothing she tries works out. Here I see Death as her muse, guiding her to an ending for her story.

  • edited March 2014
    @totz_The_plaid Sure, but Martian Munhunter is himself humanoid, and that glimpse is less than one panel. I wouldn't call that really getting to see a non-humanoid Dream. But maybe I'm just being picky.
  • OMG. Mind blown by SO many of your posts. Processing at high speed.  Too many feelings to respond.

    Gonna have a drink and work on it.  Oh, after I spend more time on that job thing I purportedly have. (Self-employment is dangerous.)
  • edited March 2014
    Wow, tons of excellent commentary and discussion here. (I'm sorry I'm a bit late in joining the forum conversation this week, my weekend was a bit full.)

    I love the point Marian made about the work an artist has to put in. Madoc (as Fry before him) really doesn't do any work. After a year of writing nothing, waiting for the perfect idea to come to him, neither putting in the work of finding a good idea nor making a bad idea good, he cheats. That's where I have to disagree with AK_Becky: Madoc's stories are not his, he's coasting on ideas stolen from Calliope's presence. In a more literal context, that would border on plagiarism. Madoc must be able to write well enough, to have found such success, but without Calliope he has nothing to write about. A real artist, in that situation, must write anyway, and make bad ideas good through the writing. But Madoc cheats.

    The nature of Shakespeare's bargain with Dream is left vague thus far. I wonder, based on the "bad, revolting stars" of volume 2, whether Will bargained less for the stories themselves than for the skill to tell them. (That would play a bit on the Shakespeare authorship "controversy" as well, the ridiculous idea that a common actor like Shakespeare couldn't possibly have been smart or talented enough to have written the works attributed to him.)

    A note: Remember last week, when I was pointing out connections to "The Tempest"? Shakespeare here says that he will end his career with a play titled "The Dream." No such play exists. In fact, according to Wikipedia, Shakespeare's last independently written play is thought to have been "The Tempest." Hoom…

    On a personal note, "A Midsummer Night's Dream" is probably my favorite Shakespeare play. (Of course, I'm biased by having acted in it twice. Once as Peter Quince, then a few years later and an ocean away as Lysander.)
  • Meanwhile, a thought about the end of "Facade." First of all, I like the imagery of Rainie looking upon Ra and turning to ash. It's part Medusa, part Lot's wife… but instead of connotations of ugliness and punishment, it's framed in terms of beauty and reward.

    But now here's a question for you: Did Rainie actually die, or did Ra do something else with her? There's that one black panel that could be standing in for "the beating of wings," but it could be something else. After all, Death explicitly said she didn't come for Rainie, and she's nice and cryptic after the fact… what does she mean when she says, "Have fun, Rainie. Better luck next time"?
  • Svithrir: Would it be fair to say that Madoc wanted to have written the stories, without putting in the work, while Shakespeare wanted to be able to do the work well in order to properly serve the stories?
  • @Joi, I think so! There's a saying: There are those who want to write a novel, and then there are those who want to have written a novel, and only one of them will ever succeed as an author. Madoc, at least by the time we meet him, is very much the latter.

    It makes Shakespeare a particularly potent choice for a foil, then, because Shakespeare wrote plays. He couldn't just put words to paper and call it done. Acting is itself an act of storytelling, as has been touched upon above. The story is thus told twice, first in the writing and then in the acting, and retold again and again for each new audience.
  • @svithrir It sounds like that's a nod to the Dorothy Parker quote: "I hate writing; I love having written." Of course, given the origin, I think it's safe to say that both kinds of people *can* succeed at writing. It's just that one will be happier in the process than the other. :)
  • @Daniel I love the paladin quote. And yeah, there's always the skeleton and fleshy bits the masks hand on. I like the metaphor of masks as casts, as it presents a studier surface to the outside world, to allow the soft, painful bits underneath time to heal. Of course, like a case, a mask should only be used for as long as it takes to heal, or it's a tool of bondage rather than a tool of healing.

    Regarding the ownership issue...  The idea of the finished product not being owned by the artist goes back more centuries than most people realize.  Once societies settle down enough to allow specialization, the artist has to find a way to feel himself while he does his work.  Which usually leads to the invention of patrons. So much of the great art from ages past didn't belong to the artist, but to the rich noblemen or clergy that paid them to do their magic.

    When the comparison gets to tech companies, though, most people start to confuse the similar but separate concepts of copyright and patents. Copyright is the legal structure that provides the creator of a work (or the benefactor who commissioned it) control over the financial exploitation of the work, to protect the incentive for them to create more art and thus benefit the overall society. Patents are similar, but instead of protecting a creative work of writing, music or art, it instead protects inventions, again to provide an incentive for inventors (or their benefactors) incentive to keep inventing.

    Unfortunately, both of copyright and patent law have been increasingly bastardized over the past few decades.  Copyright law is being twisted by the big media companies to help perpetuate a their poorly constructed business model, rather than to actually incentivize the creation of more art.  But that is nothing compared to the bastardization of the patent system (particularly in the US).  Rather than protecting actual inventions (is, specific mechanisms or methods of solving a problem), our patent system has gotten extremely lazy, and has been granting patents to abstract ideas, rather than just inventions.

    Lego's patent on the tube structure inside their brick was a great one.  They came up with a clever way of allowing bricks to be attached to one another in a variety of configurations, and for that they got a several-decade monopoly on using that design.  But they didn't have a monopoly on the abstract idea of "bricks that snap together" so you still saw a lot of competitors using other methods to achieve a similar task.  Like Megablok's grid-pattern blocks form the 70s/80s.  And when the patent expired, the competitors abandoned the not-as-good designs for the more efficient design.

    But these days we grant patents to all sorts of crap that should NEVER have been granted a patent.  Amazon's one-click-checkout patent is a prime example.  Checking out with one click is an obvious and logical goal, not an invention or a mechanism for achieving that goal.  Every year, thousands (if not millions) or corrupt patents like this are filed, by pretty much every tech company you can think of (including bio-tech, who are some of the worst offenders).  And instead of incentivizing invention, these bullshit patents are used to bully small companies out of existence and big companies into paying disgusting amounts to keep themselves out of court.

    It infuriates me to see two truly worthwhile ideas like copyrights and patents abused like this. Rather than filling the world with more stories, songs and inventions, they're strangling the creators of tomorrow and killing their creations before they can even make the leap from dream to reality.

    Grr.  SO VERY grrr.
  • Svithrir - I just wanted to point out that I agree, of course, that Madoc cheated. He cheated the creative process, and got the finished product without putting in any of the time, effort, blood, sweat and tears (so to speak). As we all know (and has already been pointed out) REAL art takes work, hard work, and slogging through plenty of days when you just don't feel like doing art anymore, and Madoc skipped all that. I was just waxing philosophical about the nature of inspiration (and perhaps the idea of collective consciousness, that stories already exist and just need to be discovered). I also got stuck, a bit, on the idea of the original muses in Greek mythology - anytime an author refers to an older mythos, I tend to wander down the rabbit trail after the original idea, sometimes focusing more on that than the story at hand (and I am sorry about that). So, we may, perhaps, disagree about the very nature of inspiration (and muses), and the origin of art, but those are open to interpretation anyway. I think we can all agree that Madoc is a self-serving prick that throws artistic morality out the window. ;)

    I wanted to comment on Rainie's story. It reminds me SO MUCH of the veterans that come home with PTSD and may never be able to fully adjust to civilian life again....and it just pains me. Her story may be one of the saddest so far, and that is really saying something, isn't it? Here she was given this amazing gift, but it's not exactly one that she wanted (I think she knew there would be risk, but never imagined what she would be giving up in order to become super human). And she never was able to reconcile herself to it. Rather than accepting her new life, and marveling at her new abilities, she gets stuck on how different it is from her old life, and becomes unbearably depressed that it will never be the same again. I really would like to read more of her backstory (I think it was mentioned that she appears in more comics in her own storyline?) -  I want to know more about how she got to where she was, basically rock bottom as far as interacting with the outside world. How does someone with such amazing powers wind up feeling so helpless? And yes, I think her story has a lot to do with consent - she wound up feeling powerless, despite new abilities, because she didn't feel like she had much say in what happened to her. I really think some survivor counseling would have helped her a great deal - someone to help her mentally pull herself out of the victim role into the survivor one, and maybe help her re-learn how to be part of society again - to help her regain her personal power. It also feels like a shouting commentary on how the military has been known to abandon vets that need them. How many soldiers come back, in a similar situation, and instead of being given the help they need, are left to fend for themselves in a world that they no longer know how to live in? 

    I like to think that Death gave her some good advice, and that perhaps Ra, rather than killing her, helped to transform her? Maybe if she is no longer shaped like a human at all (perhaps broken up into her base elements) she will no longer feel such human emotions as depression, loneliness, hopelessness, despair. Maybe, living just as elements, she can finally be free of all that and be at peace. :)
  • One of the themes I've noticed is a theme of unsettling people from their preconceptions or expectations. I suppose that's a basic premise of horror - showing you things that you don't expect or don't match what you want to see - but it seems to be more fundamental to these stories. In The Doll's House, Rose suggests that humans are dolls played with by the Endless, while Dream suggests that the Endless are manipulated by those living in time. Both of those revelations have the potential to destabilize the reality of the people who have them. Desire lives in the moment and so isn't affected, but Dream seems to believe what he said.

    I like "A Dream of A Thousand Cats" and "Facade" because they both play into this theme. Up until this point, humans are the only ones we see really interacting with the dream world, but here we see that cats can as well. The dream country responds to them the same way it responds to humans, which destabilizes the otherwise (understandably) human-centric overarching story. In "Facade", we see that Death isn't able to manipulate the creatures she visits. The expectation is that she is all-powerful, but she isn't more powerful than the mythologies humans created.

    When it comes to "Calliope" and "A Midsummer Night's Dream", I really like what some commenters have been saying about the difference between Madoc's abuse of artistic inspiration for fame and Shakespeare's bargin. It strikes me that the scene from Faustus that Will quotes to Marlowe resembles what Madoc has done - abused an innocent being to serve his "own appetite". Will, on the other hand, exchanges creative control over two of his plays for the ability to create lasting stories. I want to say it is less damaging, but Morpheus suggests that Will might regret it later, and then there is Hamnet's death. I connected that to his conversation with Titania -- did anyone else?  

    To go back to my earlier point about expectations, I think it is interesting that in "A Midsummer Night's Dream", we see that Morpheus, the Shaper of form, needs to speak through a mortal playwright to create a lasting "truth" about the faeries; he can't actually create or deliver such stories himself. It's an interesting limitation.
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